M4: are CA and G&P clone of TM?

[Hata]

Just wonder, are CA and G&P clone of TM?
Compare to quality, CA or G&P win?

[ThunderCactus]

No they're not
And speaking internally, I've heard of both brands breaking down fast, like within 2 weeks stock. I've heard of a stock CA gun lasting 2 seasons, and I've SEEN first hand a stock, shimmed, G&P go through more than 40,000 rounds before tune up (it hadn't broken yet!!)
However if you go G&P, be sure to shim the gears before using it AT ALL. G&P has very weak gear shafts so if it's not shimmed it could break a gear the first game you use it. But once shimmed they usually last a long time
Speaking externally, there's no compromise for G&P, it's just far more solid than CA

[Amos]

G&P makes some of THE BEST aftermarket accessories and bodies for guns...

so why not buy a whole gun from them?

Internals are always replaced anyways.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

No they're not

What are you talking about? The vast majority of all AEGs available are clones of TM's original designs. G&P and CA are no exceptions, especially when it comes to their basic M4/16s.

[Amos]

Originally Posted by The Saint

What are you talking about? The vast majority of all AEGs available are clones of TM's original designs. G&P and CA are no exceptions, especially when it comes to their basic M4/16s.

Really?

Because G&P and CA are NOT clones of a Marui M4... They use the same mechbox, but they use a different hop-up unit, body, and outer barrel.

Hop = one piece on CA and G&P instead of Marui's two piece design
Body = space for the two piece hop instead of Marui's standard
Outer Barrels = one piece instead of Marui's 3 or 4 piece design.

The M4/M16/Everything inbetween is the only thing I'd suggest against getting a Marui for.

[ThunderCactus]

And the TM disassembles more like a real M4, minus the 2 plastic tabs, whereas the CA and G&P have the much more reliable slide apart receivers

[Amos]

Oh yea... I completely forgot about those goddamn tabs... do I ever hate those things.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by Amos

Really?

Because G&P and CA are NOT clones of a Marui M4... They use the same mechbox, but they use a different hop-up unit, body, and outer barrel.

Hop = one piece on CA and G&P instead of Marui's two piece design
Body = space for the two piece hop instead of Marui's standard
Outer Barrels = one piece instead of Marui's 3 or 4 piece design.

The M4/M16/Everything inbetween is the only thing I'd suggest against getting a Marui for.

Yeah, really.

I think people are beginning to think only Chinese clones are clones, when in fact the industry was built off the back of TM's design with incremental changes. Considering that the mechbox is the very heart of the airsoft gun and everything else is built around it, downplaying the copying of the mechbox and highlighting the other differences misses the point.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

And the TM disassembles more like a real M4, minus the 2 plastic tabs, whereas the CA and G&P have the much more reliable slide apart receivers

I'm not sure about G&P, but CA had the tabs until fairly recently. It's one of the reasons why I never got a CA M4.

[Amos]

Originally Posted by The Saint

Yeah, really.

I think people are beginning to think only Chinese clones are clones, when in fact the industry was built off the back of TM's design with incremental changes. Considering that the mechbox is the very heart of the airsoft gun and everything else is built around it, downplaying the copying of the mechbox and highlighting the other differences misses the point.

... So your saying because the mechbox is the same, the gun's a clone?

So you're saying a realsword AK (uses a standard V3 with the only changes being an extended anti-reversal latch so you can trip it on the outside of the mechbox) is a clone of a Tokyo Marui AK?

Externals are 50% of the gun.

TM guns barrel design = barrel wobble, CA and G&P = no wobble.

You need to modify a TM receiver to make it able to use an after market hop-up unit...

Edit:

Not to mention the inside of the TM and CA and G&P mechboxes are unique to each company.. each of them have a different amount of metal in different places to reinforce it..

[ThunderCactus]

If the mechbox makes half the gun a clone, does that mean the G3, MP5 and G&P M249's are all half-clones of a TM M4?
Yes TM was the first to make the design, but how do you know CA engineers stole the TM blueprint and built a gun from those? How do you know CA didn't get REAL M4 blueprints to make their M4 a clone of a real M4?
CA got the idea to make an airsoft gun from TM, and got all the basic internal principles cloned from TM, but it's a very different AEG

[Amos]

To drive the point home further;

JG M4's are a clone... everything was reverse engineered from the TM. The old type copy TM's design 100%... If it wasn't branded "Made In China" and you didn't pay attention to the build and material quality you wouldn't know it was a TM.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

If the mechbox makes half the gun a clone, does that mean the G3, MP5 and G&P M249's are all half-clones of a TM M4?

Well, given that TM doesn't even make a M249 and that the M249 is one of the non-TM design success stories, I think you need to think about what your actual point is.

Yes TM was the first to make the design, but how do you know CA engineers stole the TM blueprint and built a gun from those? How do you know CA didn't get REAL M4 blueprints to make their M4 a clone of a real M4?
CA got the idea to make an airsoft gun from TM, and got all the basic internal principles cloned from TM, but it's a very different AEG

Because it's a well known fact that CA started off by copying TM's design, down to the body tabs? It's not a secret, or even a strike against CA. It's just the way things were done in the business (and still is done).

Originally Posted by Amos

JG M4's are a clone... everything was reverse engineered from the TM. The old type copy TM's design 100%... If it wasn't branded "Made In China" and you didn't pay attention to the build and material quality you wouldn't know it was a TM.

Using your own logic...

... So your saying because the mechbox is the same, the gun's a clone?

So you're saying a realsword AK (uses a standard V3 with the only changes being an extended anti-reversal latch so you can trip it on the outside of the mechbox) is a clone of a Tokyo Marui AK?

Externals are 50% of the gun.

TM guns barrel design = barrel wobble, CA and G&P = no wobble.

http://www.wgcshop.com/pcart/shopper...%20Gong%20AEGs

JG is no longer just a Chinese clone company, because they've demonstrated that they're no longer just cloning TM by making their own external changes.

[wildcard]

Amos, thundercactus

I think what Saint was trying to say here is that since TM are the first to manufacture teh AEG Box the later company is simply piggy backing on their design and in time enhanced it with their own. All TM mechbox design have their flaws which were first copied by companies such as Systema, Classic army, G&P, KA, and many others.
Being one of the many pioneer of modern airsoft TM design was cloned by many companies with their version of success and failures, I remember the first batch of Zeke, Systema metal bodies they were horrible eventually after the second and third run they were one of teh best. The same can be said about Classic army and G&P the only difference between CA, KA and G&P are the KA and G&P put a bit more R&D enhancement in their product improving the initial TM flaws.
There are other aftermarket companies that buy the rights from TM to develop parts for TM companies such as Systema, Pro Gear(no longer exist), King Arms, G&P and First Factory so along the way these companies have sprouted a different batch of smaller specialized manufacturer creating customized pieces for TM based AEG/GBB so if you want to look at the bigger picture the guys are indeed copying TM design and benefiting from TM R&D.

*Edit*
FYI TM has many more hop up unit design other than the ones in existence on their current models, some of them are quite similar to the other manufacturer design, the only difference is that these design never made it to production.

So Hata hopefully this little history tidbits answer your question, but if it doesn't then take the King Arms, G&P and Classic army (in that same order)

[AngelusNex]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

And speaking internally, I've heard of both brands breaking down fast,

I've heard of at least one stock TM breaking down in a day, Brand new. but that doesn't mean they all break down fast. CA is more solid than TM IMO and I've never opened/worked on a G&P but from what i hear it's the best of the 3... though that's just what i hear...

Originally Posted by Amos

... So your saying because the mechbox is the same, the gun's a clone?

So you're saying a realsword AK (uses a standard V3 with the only changes being an extended anti-reversal latch so you can trip it on the outside of the mechbox) is a clone of a Tokyo Marui AK?

Externals are 50% of the gun.

Realsword Aks use a custom shorter gearbox.... so in other words they reinvented it. And same mechbox means part of the guns a clone at least.

[Kokanee]

Wow it's funny that such a simple question turned into a pissing contest!

To answer Hata's question;

Both G&P and CA have been in the AEG business long enough that their products can be considered separate and unique from TM. Yes they all use a mechbox, yes TM pioneered the technology. But at this point insisting that any company other than TM is a clone is like saying that all other car manufacturers are "clones" of Ford.

You're better off to think of the AEG world as a collection of two groups of companies - 1st Tier are those companies that design their own products and innovate, like TM, G&P, CA, Real Sword, etc. 2nd Tier would be the chinese manufacturers who indeed to "clone" AEGs, regardless of who originally manufactured them.

What is important for you is to do research on AEGs you are interested in, attend some games and get some "hands on" time with some etc.