Cont'd from Airsoft & Law Thread

[BlackRain]

Originally Posted by whisper_kill

No offense, but it ain't gonna happen. You can wrap the sport up in any soft and fuzzy wrapping you like... but the moment a 'minor' shows his/her mom/dad a realistic looking weapon, with their kid dressed up in realistic equipment you will be right back to square one. There is a very real reason why this sport is kept on the down low. In today's political climate, and with the media covering every single gun crime... you get the idea.

As for charities, that idea has been done before in the past. The problem now is, the unfortunate reality that waivers are not enough to cover the hosts asses from litigious folks and therefore incorporation and insurance become a necessity and as you are probably more than well aware, these items cost lots of money. Add in covering off expenses, field fees and it leaves you very little, if anything to give to a charity. These are the current economics of our small underground sport.

I have been playing paintball for the better half of 20 yr's and have watched it grow from the so called "outlaw sport" into the socially accepted sport it is today. Which includes watching soccer moms go to the local pro shop and buy their 13 yr old kid a complete milisim set up with tactical vest, swat styled helmet, BT Delta and the whole nine yards. I can say the the BT Delta along with a few other paintball guns look pretty realistic to say the least. So I would argue the "Back to square one" theory you have put up any day of the week, it's simply not true. There will always be those that are against it but until steps are taken to put the sport in a more positive light it will always be thought of as a no no hush hush sport. Change has to start somewhere just like it did in paintball. CAPS is a prime example of ways to make change to put a more positive light on the sport. The change will come sooner or later... it's just a matter of time.

As a field owner I can tell you that waivers work just fine and I am speaking from experience. Unlike our American counter parts our justice system puts more than "Its just a piece of paper" mentality behind a signed waiver when challenged in court. Insurance is there for those occasions that if something does go wrong that organizers and or field owners have a back up to them loosing their shirt or not being able to pay. The insurance is there to ensure the customer and operators well being in the event that something does go wrong outside of normal circumstances. Myself in charities I have donated to, gate fee's, raffle funds etc. are given to the charity. Bare operating costs are kept back with the majority going toward the charity itself. Bare operating costs being paying the staff or for specialized equipment needed for the event. I have never had any problems in that dept. with getting a sizable amount for the charity we were giving a donation to. I rely on my regular business to cover the routine operating costs on charity events. So I will have to disagree with your summation of the charity issue.

Cheers & Happy New Year
BlackRain.

[mcguyver]

Well, paintball evolved from play that was very similar to what we do now, back in it's "sketchy" days. The evolution has taken it to the speedball arena with no resemblance whatsoever to what we do. That is what the media shows, that is what the general public sees on sports channels. The fashions that are sold in paintball stores overwhelmingly support that. There are no paintbal guns, they are markers, or the word "gun" is applied in the same level of danger or feeling as "water gun" for the soccer-mom crowd.

While not all paintball is played like kiddie speedball, what I see out at the paintball fields I play is 90% that way, no bush play, no tactics, just dump the paint as best you can.

For those out in society who don't play these sorts of games, the association with guns is very frightening. They have little to know idea what it's all about, and the idea of people running around with guns, any guns real or not, means that they must be subversives, quasi-militia, terrorists, whatever. Because they don't play our game means that it has no positive value (otherwise they would be doing it), and as such it must be harmful and negative. And you wouldn't believe the arguments they will come up with to justify that position.

There is a great fear of guns looming in this country, mainly centered in urban areas, where access to and use of guns is primarily by the criminal element, with innocent citizens becoming casualties. When you factor that in to the thought processes of a generally ignorant public, it becomes frightening that people would wear camo, run around with guns, and use co-ordinated tactics and teamwork to simulate combat and death. They must be training for something, right, because how can war and death be fun?

I'm not saying that making the sport of airsoft mainstream is impossible, but it would have to become a sport. It is actually now a hobby, with no standardized rules, no means of scoring, no defined team structure, no play venues or parameters for them. To make it a sport, you would have to eliminate the way we play currently, and turn it into something like speedball, or someone will have to invent a standardized game set, and make tournaments available for them. That would be a terrible turn-off for most players out there.

So, which way should it go?

Any way you do it would mean drastic changes, to both the hobby itself, and everything that it involves. People don't like change, and just because you believe it's inevitable does not make it welcome or palatable. And change is only inevitable if you let it happen. Many players will not.

OK, now I'm drunk.

[L473ncy]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

To make it a sport, you would have to eliminate the way we play currently, and turn it into something like speedball, or someone will have to invent a standardized game set, and make tournaments available for them. That would be a terrible turn-off for most players out there.

OK. My first post of the new year.

Paintball does have woodsball still which is closer to Airsoft. Also there are "speedball" kinda games for airsoft but they still tend to lean towards a woodsball kinda deal.

IIRC there are "tournaments" at some facilities. I believe there was a CQB take the balloon kinda thing tournament running somewhere (Was it XT?).

The difference between paintball and airsoft in my mind is that one for the most part has "unrealistic guns", sure there are things like RAP4 or whatever but the majority of the "markers" don't have real life counterparts that exist. This gives the impression of a "water-gun" type of association to paintball markers.

Airsoft on the other hand is "realistic and scary" for the most part. Almost everyone has a gun who has a real life counterpart (Glock's, AR15's, Sig Sauer's, G36's, MP5 etc.). Save for the "JG Dragon" (Yes, really a shell over an M4) and VSR-10 there are little other "made up" guns in the airsoft world. People associate our guns as guns because for the most part they have real life counterparts which are used to hurt others both in crime and in war, whereas people don't really hurt you with a paintball gun only leave a welt (if you're SWAT and have a pepper ball gun it's still not like it's a lethal "shoot to kill" kind of thing).

One thing as a community is that we have to be united and stop bickering among ourselves, take a good well thought out idea and run with it. If we fight among ourselves that just sets up our demise because we are split into factions thinking one idea is the "right and best way".

[Danke]

In a nutshell, the guys who roll into that other thread with a plan to save airsoft all come across selling the need for somebody to appear with a “top down” plan that will change the law in Canada in regards to airsoft.

As part of a happy coincidence with saving the game the price of tools of the trade will be slashed to the US levels by allowing US and Asian retailers to ship across the border with no restrictions on what AEGs, GBBs, etc. are sent to Canada.

The plans may be dressed up with other tones of concern about the faint flame of the game being snuffed out but after they've been picked at a bit the bones of the argument are always the same.

The calm voices that intercede always suggest some sort of loosely allied grassroots program to improve the image of airsoft face to face. Now you'll never win over the shrill curtain twitchers in the bigger cities (and don’t think they aren’t in small towns either) even if you turn AEGs into super soakers. Over time you can start to win over that silent majority.

For the folks who want to get a M4 from Airsoft Atlanta that's just too much of a commitment of time and effort. The dilettantes are the ones killing the sport, not the powers that be. The ones who dip in their toe, quit, and then bad mouth airsoft to anyone unfortunate enough to be stuck in the same place as they are.

So in the meantime keep playing, introduce your friends and family to what you do. Go out and spend time in the Community and volunteer on school trips or litter cleanup days and become a leader on your own merits. Keep your hobby secondary to being a good citizen and then after time you’ll find yourself in a position to change the public perception of what this activity is.

The catch is (and the deal breaker for most of the empire builders) is this will take years and years to do. Maybe by the time my kid is in his 30s this kind of activity won't be lumped in with the evil drug dealers and the like.

[Capt.Flan]

Oh boy... Can someone explain to me why the fuck someone feel the absolute need to make this "GAME" commercial and country wise popular and socially accepted?!?!

WTF! To be honest, I think the quality of this activity is due to the good control and relatively low number of players.

Like it has been said earlier we cannot afford to start to divide into multiple ideological groups. If this sport has to come to something that the society accept and tolerate it will by itself. A little like paintball. No need to speed up things for once! One day CBC will come to a game and do a report for the 6 o'clock news and tell everyone that if you see guys in full army set up and M4's, no worries! It must be airsoft guys playing a game!.... Yea right!

AEG replica's = Not legal in a way till now
Paintball shits = A 13 years old kid can almost buy one anytime or order it from US.

We don't go to law and try to change it will come to us!

Till then ( super public national airsoft 100% legit airsoft clubs... ) enjoy your quality games whit your dear ASC teammates and friends!

There is about 2-3 quality games a month around my area. WTF you want more?!?

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by Cpt.Flan

Like it has been said earlier we cannot afford to start to divide into multiple ideological groups.

Some people believes that has already happened. Most recently, the whole thing over whether guns with transparent lower receiver are indeed acceptable airsoft guns, just to name one.

One day CBC will come to a game and do a report for the 6 o'clock news and tell everyone that if you see guys in full army set up and M4's, no worries! It must be airsoft guys playing a game!.... Yea right!

Yes, right, as in it's already happened once. It wasn't CBC, I think it was Global or something.

AEG replica's = Not legal in a way till now

Still not legal. The only reason guns with transparent receiver'd guns get in is precisely because they are not replica firearm by interpretation of the legal definition.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to take control of one's own fate.

[burningashes]

(sigh) Just let the game mature by itself.

[Capt.Flan]

Originally Posted by burningashes

(sigh) Just let the game mature by itself.

That's exactly my point.

[Daiviet]

Originally Posted by Cpt.Flan

One day CBC will come to a game and do a report for the 6 o'clock news and tell everyone that if you see guys in full army set up and M4's, no worries! It must be airsoft guys playing a game!.... Yea right!

YouTube - Global National - Airsoft in Toronto at TTAC3

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Participation in the game of "airsoft" is not in any way illegal , never was ..

the "sport" is just a legitimate as paintball or lazer tag... it is in fact 100% the same game.

there is no need to "legitimize" airsoft... it already is legitimate.

wasting effort talking about " legalizing" airsoft simply draws resources away from the real task.

Legitimizing access to replica firearms for use in legal shooting sports.

[arcanuck]

I contest the classification regarding airsoft and .43/.45/.50paintball "guns" as replica firearms. A group was trying to ban .68 paintball as well. It was always demonstrated that a replica firearm would look and function as the real firearm using blank cartridges; so real that even on close inspection they are difficult to differentiate. Airsoft and paintball in no way replicate the fuction of a real firearm. It's clear to me the people who banned metal airsoft had no real engineering or scientific background or experience with these sports. Nobody can make a real firearm with an aluminum airsoft barrel and receiver; there is not enough metal present to machine and bore and the metal is too soft.

[The Saint]

Replica firearm is defined in the Criminal Code as a matter of form, not function.

[ancorp]

When was "metal airsoft" banned?

[arcanuck]

Originally Posted by ancorp

When was "metal airsoft" banned?

Jan 2008

The Saint, I was informed it was because of the metal receivers. Did they changed their reason?

[The Saint]

It was never an issue of "metal" receiver, but rather opaque receivers. Since replica firearm is a definition based on visual resemblance, the material has never been a determining factor. In that sense, an airsoft gun with opaque, plastic receiver is no less a replica firearm than an airsoft gun with opaque, metal receiver.