Rules for Milsim Support Gunners?

Amazing KG3 · February 11th, 2007, 00:08

Were trying to put rules in place about support gunners Involving compensation for recoil, ammo count, bulk, maneuverability, etc etc. Do any milsim players have any pointer, rules or ideas to help out? Obviously a real steel M249 is more than difficult to fire on full auto, so were thinking about rules like having to be prone, oe supporting on a bipod, however that can be a pain in the ass for 3 round bursts and what have you. Essentialy we dont want some one firing off 1000 rds, without having to change mags and keep a steady clean trajectory while running full tilt at us. (just like hicap games)

Also if you have fired an M249, or any LMG, please post your experience, it does help.

Kokanee · February 11th, 2007, 00:10

Limit ammo counts to 200 rounds/boxmag

Amazing KG3 · February 11th, 2007, 00:12

well duh. plus it can be difficult with auto winding box mags. but thanks for the input.

The Saint · February 11th, 2007, 00:15

No autowinding mags would put a significant dampener on someone's ability to hold the trigger down.

MrEvolution · February 11th, 2007, 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saint

No autowinding mags would put a significant dampener on someone's ability to hold the trigger down.

Seconded, would be equal to the person swapping out the barrel/changing belt feeds.

Amazing KG3 · February 11th, 2007, 00:18

i like that! any manual winding beta mags out there?

The Saint · February 11th, 2007, 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing KG3

i like that! any manual winding beta mags out there?

Well, they do exist at the very least, but I wonder long they've been out of stock.

http://www.wgcshop.com/pcart/shopper...ing%20Magazine

I had a manual boxmag by First Factory, before I sold my G36. No complaints, besides the maraca music, though padding the inside helps a lot.

Edit: My shopping-fu is awesomest.

http://www.uncompany.com/pageproduct...sp?prodid=2430

Ibby · February 11th, 2007, 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing KG3

Also if you have fired an M249, or any LMG, please post your experience, it does help.

I've fired a few. The 249 isn't as hard to fire as you may think. Being a big guy helps. I can fire one like Arnie can in a movie. 7.62 based LMG's are a different story. They're heavy as hell and the recoil is much greater. I've never fired one not on a bipod or tripod.
As for realism, like Kokanee said, limit mag loads to 200. Let 'em carry a couple load's worth, and put a load of 200 on a couple others in the section. Make barrel changes at the proper intervals a requirement. Pretty simple.

Gryphon · February 11th, 2007, 02:14

FWIW, Manitoba is kinda considered to be "Milsim Central" and our LMG rules are rather lax for low/realcap restricted games. Machine gunners are the only ones allowed to carry hicaps and box mags as well as loose ammo, although if they're using hicaps they may only carry one so it can't be loaned to a rifle user.

Now that I think about it, we probably haven't had much of a problem with LMGs simply because we didn't have a lot of them around. This season there will be a LOT though, seems every man and his dog wants one now. Off the top of my head I know of over a half dozen, mostly CAs with at least one STAR. We'll probably introduce some new rules here and there but for the most part we like to assume that the player is going to play responsibly with their equipment.

I'm going to disagree with restricting box mags to 200 rounds though. It's generally accepted that it takes at least two BBs to accomplish the same task as one real bullet, and you usually can't get all of the BBs in a box mag to enter the feeding mechanism when it gets really low. If you're intent on restricting machine gunners I would recommend a load of 500 rounds in a box mag, otherwise most people with CA or TOP M249s will just opt for multiple under-filled 300 round hicaps since they're a lot easier to carry and swap out.

Trader rating · February 11th, 2007, 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gryphon

It's generally accepted that it takes at least two BBs to accomplish the same task as one real bullet, and you usually can't get all of the BBs in a box mag to enter the feeding mechanism when it gets really low.

Bah, I always said its a 3 to 1 considering a bird farting can make enough breeze to blow a BB off course, and a blade of grass is the Kevlar of airsoft...though, some milsimers out there will argue you till they day that they die that 1 bullet = 1 BB.

Screw ammo restrictions on squad gunners. The size and weight of their weapon is enough of a setback. Just make them fire in bursts.

It all depends on what you consider milsim to be. Do you want to simulate the loadout? or the combat experience?
Because there is nothing real about a SAW gunner who has to use a full box mag to kill a guy hiding behind a bush.

attack-beaver · February 11th, 2007, 03:00

if u want to do SAW rules one rule we use out here is that depending on the team is that theres X-number of saws per 10 players. and for ammo i cant remember but i think it was like 800rds with the gunner plus another 1000 as back-up but carried on another player. the ammo limits I'm not 100% sure on but I'm sure I'm not far off.

thephenom · February 11th, 2007, 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Droc

Screw ammo restrictions on squad gunners. The size and weight of their weapon is enough of a setback. Just make them fire in bursts.

Unless they have a STAR, it's not much heavier than a full metal rifle.

Amazing KG3 · February 11th, 2007, 07:32

thnx for the help!

Bravo One-Six · February 11th, 2007, 10:08

1) The ammo restriction for a SAW depends on the ammo restrictions for the rest of the players. If you're running realcaps for everyone, same goes for the SAW.

2) Individual players may carry a 'belt' of ammo for the saw, ranging between one to two hundred rounds for a realcap event, adjusted accordingly for non-realcap events. Can be carried in bags or 35mm film canisters.

These are probably the only restrictions you'll need, and I'll explain why:

1) Reloading a 249 with a box mag or highcaps is going to take JUST about as long as if you were to reload a real one. You'll have to be down for a reasonable amount of time while you open the mag, fill it, and close it back up.

2) An individual carrying a 249 or M60 will suffer the same accuracy problems when standing and firing as those who are operating the real thing. Those who are more capable of accurately firing the SAW while standing due to physical stature should not be penalized and made to lay flat.

3) While limiting the ammo to 200 / boxmag, it makes a saw almost useless as a squad support weapon if the individual only has 1-3 box mags. 600 rounds can be topped by any SINGLE M16 gunner carrying 20 mags. Allowing other individuals to carry 'extra ammo' is accurate and it makes the weapon more useful. ALSO encourages them to feed the gun in order to keep their asses safe.

bean · February 11th, 2007, 11:41

The reason we are trying to come up with the rules here is that in the past hicap guns were all used as machine guns. It would be rather hypocritical of me to make up rules if i did not own a machine gun or was not in a place where i could make up rules. I own a m60 that weighs almost twice or more then any of the guns that come to our field. When picking the m60 i choose the model i got because of its low ammo capacity and that I have to pull the cocking handle every 30 rounds. The real m60 suffers from mad jams all the time which is why I felt this to be more of a challenge. My problem stems from people who don't have support weapons and want to slam a box mag on a small g36 or a mp5 etc. Those aren't support weapons and should never be deemed as such. I noticed that (I think it was atreyu's game) where he had a rule the gunner must be in the prone or supported by something. I liked this because it adds some teamwork to the mix. Your forcing the guy who has the best cover fire to get down and shoot it and not just rambo there way through a fire fight. I can stand and walk around with my m60 all day long and use it as an assault rifle but I don't because that is stupid.

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February 11th, 2007, 00:08	#1
Amazing KG3 Trader rating Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Calgary, AB	Rules for Milsim Support Gunners? Were trying to put rules in place about support gunners Involving compensation for recoil, ammo count, bulk, maneuverability, etc etc. Do any milsim players have any pointer, rules or ideas to help out? Obviously a real steel M249 is more than difficult to fire on full auto, so were thinking about rules like having to be prone, oe supporting on a bipod, however that can be a pain in the ass for 3 round bursts and what have you. Essentialy we dont want some one firing off 1000 rds, without having to change mags and keep a steady clean trajectory while running full tilt at us. (just like hicap games) Also if you have fired an M249, or any LMG, please post your experience, it does help.

February 11th, 2007, 00:15	#4
The Saint Trader rating Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Quebec	No autowinding mags would put a significant dampener on someone's ability to hold the trigger down. __________________ "The Bird of Hermes is My Name, Eating My Wings to Make Me Tame."

February 11th, 2007, 10:08	#14
Bravo One-Six Pacification Specialist Trader rating Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Toronto	1) The ammo restriction for a SAW depends on the ammo restrictions for the rest of the players. If you're running realcaps for everyone, same goes for the SAW. 2) Individual players may carry a 'belt' of ammo for the saw, ranging between one to two hundred rounds for a realcap event, adjusted accordingly for non-realcap events. Can be carried in bags or 35mm film canisters. These are probably the only restrictions you'll need, and I'll explain why: 1) Reloading a 249 with a box mag or highcaps is going to take JUST about as long as if you were to reload a real one. You'll have to be down for a reasonable amount of time while you open the mag, fill it, and close it back up. 2) An individual carrying a 249 or M60 will suffer the same accuracy problems when standing and firing as those who are operating the real thing. Those who are more capable of accurately firing the SAW while standing due to physical stature should not be penalized and made to lay flat. 3) While limiting the ammo to 200 / boxmag, it makes a saw almost useless as a squad support weapon if the individual only has 1-3 box mags. 600 rounds can be topped by any SINGLE M16 gunner carrying 20 mags. Allowing other individuals to carry 'extra ammo' is accurate and it makes the weapon more useful. ALSO encourages them to feed the gun in order to keep their asses safe. __________________ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Solving an imaginary world's contrived and over dramatic problems... 6 millimeters at a time."

February 11th, 2007, 00:10	#2
Kokanee Ministry of Peace Trader rating Join Date: Mar 2002	Limit ammo counts to 200 rounds/boxmag

February 11th, 2007, 00:12	#3
Amazing KG3 Trader rating Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Calgary, AB	well duh. plus it can be difficult with auto winding box mags. but thanks for the input.

February 11th, 2007, 00:18	#6
Amazing KG3 Trader rating Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Calgary, AB	i like that! any manual winding beta mags out there?

February 11th, 2007, 02:14	#9
Gryphon Trader rating Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MB	FWIW, Manitoba is kinda considered to be "Milsim Central" and our LMG rules are rather lax for low/realcap restricted games. Machine gunners are the only ones allowed to carry hicaps and box mags as well as loose ammo, although if they're using hicaps they may only carry one so it can't be loaned to a rifle user. Now that I think about it, we probably haven't had much of a problem with LMGs simply because we didn't have a lot of them around. This season there will be a LOT though, seems every man and his dog wants one now. Off the top of my head I know of over a half dozen, mostly CAs with at least one STAR. We'll probably introduce some new rules here and there but for the most part we like to assume that the player is going to play responsibly with their equipment. I'm going to disagree with restricting box mags to 200 rounds though. It's generally accepted that it takes at least two BBs to accomplish the same task as one real bullet, and you usually can't get all of the BBs in a box mag to enter the feeding mechanism when it gets really low. If you're intent on restricting machine gunners I would recommend a load of 500 rounds in a box mag, otherwise most people with CA or TOP M249s will just opt for multiple under-filled 300 round hicaps since they're a lot easier to carry and swap out.

February 11th, 2007, 03:00	#11
attack-beaver Trader rating Join Date: May 2005 Location: calgary	if u want to do SAW rules one rule we use out here is that depending on the team is that theres X-number of saws per 10 players. and for ammo i cant remember but i think it was like 800rds with the gunner plus another 1000 as back-up but carried on another player. the ammo limits I'm not 100% sure on but I'm sure I'm not far off.

February 11th, 2007, 07:32	#13
Amazing KG3 Trader rating Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Calgary, AB	thnx for the help!

February 11th, 2007, 11:41	#15
bean Administrator Trader rating Join Date: Oct 2004	The reason we are trying to come up with the rules here is that in the past hicap guns were all used as machine guns. It would be rather hypocritical of me to make up rules if i did not own a machine gun or was not in a place where i could make up rules. I own a m60 that weighs almost twice or more then any of the guns that come to our field. When picking the m60 i choose the model i got because of its low ammo capacity and that I have to pull the cocking handle every 30 rounds. The real m60 suffers from mad jams all the time which is why I felt this to be more of a challenge. My problem stems from people who don't have support weapons and want to slam a box mag on a small g36 or a mp5 etc. Those aren't support weapons and should never be deemed as such. I noticed that (I think it was atreyu's game) where he had a rule the gunner must be in the prone or supported by something. I liked this because it adds some teamwork to the mix. Your forcing the guy who has the best cover fire to get down and shoot it and not just rambo there way through a fire fight. I can stand and walk around with my m60 all day long and use it as an assault rifle but I don't because that is stupid.

Rules for Milsim Support Gunners?

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