Anyone deal with General Starlight Company?

[Red Dot]

So these Canadian folk make all types of night and thermal vision optics. I was at their office today and was impressed by their Gen1 NVDs. Has anyone purchased a unit from them? Curious to know if people have dealt with them already.

[Kingsix]

I have a Gen 2 riflescope from them, it works really well despite the age.

[Red Dot]

Cool, I'm contemplating organizing a group buy to bring the cost of these things down. They were very keen on being able to tailor different options and accessories as people wanted.

[Kingsix]

I don't think there will be gen 2 around 1400-1500 after taxes brand new.


I've tried for many years to get cheap Nods. I eventually settled into a D300MS using a MX9916UV surplus tube and even that ran me 1510 to my door.

Good luck getting a lower price, if you can get below the 1000$ mark for gen 2 than you can expect pretty brisk business form airsofters.


As far as I can tell GSCI uses french (Phontonis) and russian/belarussian (Elkaran, Katod, NPZ, LOMO, Belomo) tubes with Russian or belarussian housings. You might be able to get something cheaper if PVS-5 (MX9916UV) or PVS-4 (MX-9644) surplus tubes where around American/Israeli.


I can't say if the sanctions we are imposing on Russia will factor into getting the cost down.

I know Pakistan and India on paper are capable of producing MX9916UV and MX-9644 tubes but even they import knockdown NODS from Russia/belarussia.

Iran can make stuff or at least they claim. Probably will never export lol

Chinese made NODs are licensed Photonis or Russian devices and seem to cost more than PVS-14s.

[Red Dot]

Yeah, I don't know how many and what type of units change the price but they are open to the idea so it's a start. You want to pick up a new unit?

[Derpystronk]

I've dealt with General Starlight. They sell me a number of components and parts, such as intensifier tubes. My primary goal was to point where it plateaus on it's diminishing returns, where you get pretty close to Gen 3, but to get that extra 10% of power needed to match it you'd have to keep throwing a lot of money at it.

Just remember GSCI is a business that deals with raw numbers. They have customers all over the world. A couple of Airsofters looking to penny pinch won't exactly be worth their time if you try and squeeze that fruit too much. And remember accessories are always needed, and always have prices of their own. One of the reasons I have yet to buy Armasight is because of the need to buy a 200 dollar J-Arm to use it, since normal USGI J-Arms are not compatible with Armasights housings.

Whatever you end up buying - Gen 2 has a very, very VERY wide range of performance. You can go from something that doesn't work very well unless it's a full moon to pretty awesome in almost every circumstance - sometimes the difference is only in a few hundred bucks. It's one of those things that is really, really hard to explain. It's even harder to explain how to look for those things and become an educated buyer. There are a lot of variables.

I'd be more than happy to help out if you have any questions in specific.

[Red Dot]

I was actually impressed with how open they were to purchasing a few units (I had estimated 5 or so). I went in person to try their Gen1's, I have experienced my teammates Gen2 on the weekend and I was impressed by the Gen1 however it was in the back of the office with lots of ambient light bouncing into the dark room, by no means challenging for NODs but the clarity of the picture was pretty good... I was expecting it to be utter crap as entry-level gear but I think it would pass especially with teammates rocking better gear with illuminators and such.

I know I keep reading avoid Gen1, but that $1400+ price jump to Gen2... it hurts so much.

I heard your the man for illuminators so I might pick your brain on those.

[Derpystronk]

The issue with Gen 1 is they absolutely require illumination. It is a 100% active system. I had a pair of cheap ass Russian Bino Gen 1's that looked amazing with the illuminator on, but I could not see anything without it(Naked eye worked better). But because they are an active system they have two inherent flaws:

1) The light from an IR Illuminator, in a majority of cases, leaks into the visible spectrum. Depending on the power it is pumping out people without NVG's will be able to see this floating red dot around, and in many cases long before you see them.

2) If you are in a building, like at Picton, the illuminators tend to caught caught up on the closest objects, and less light is reaching the further objects. It works very similar to our eyes in this respect, the tubes adjust to accommodate the brightest light source.

Typically what I tell people to do is focus on low light training. If you can't afford the absolute lowest entry point to Gen 2, get good flashlights. Focus on how to apply them at night. A really, really good Surefire costs less than 200 bucks off of eBay. Rent a field and do a night game with your friends / team. Go camping with your guys (without guns of course), and do a training session on walking through the woods, how to employ white light, etc.

That said Gen 1 does do something important - it sees into the IR Spectrum. IR Aiming lasers tend not to leak, so it might be good to have one or two as a means of locating NVG users who choose to go active. If you had, lets say, a squad of 8 guys it might not hurt to have 2 of them with a Gen 1 running passively. They won't see anything, but if a laser comes on they know where to return fire immediately.

I'm not an Elitist I swear. It's just the common advice is don't touch Gen 1. At all. Ever. This is echoed on the major NVG forums (although those guys are assholes since they have 2000 dollar PVS-14's). I and many other people know first hand what it's like to throw a few hundred dollars at something that is completely underwhelming. It's not like an AEG where you can upgrade it and tune it. The only solution is to end up selling it.

Buy once, cry once.

[ThunderCactus]

The old russian starlight scopes that absolutely required illumination are "gen 0"
gen 1 is a significant improvement above the old russian stuff.

I ran top end gen1 for a few years, it definitely did more than nothing. For the amount of times it does help you out, for as many times as you use it in a year, it was definitely worth it for me.

[Red Dot]

Bottom line is I need to try them outside in conditions I'll be playing in. I have no idea how I'll be able to do that without buying them though. Sigh, first world problems.

[Kingsix]

my experience with gen 1 has been it's great under clear skies with moonlight, skyglow, light pollution.

You must go active when it's overcast, black skies or under dim starlight.

Even gen 2 will eventually require a illuminator when it gets dark enough.

Gen 3 will require a illuminator in a building with no light or really dark nights with very little natural light ( Think Afghanistan during a sandstorm).

The newer production gen 1 tubes are lower distortion than the older models. Light amplification is improved but nowhere near a gen 2.

My experience with gen 1 has been with Military units, NSPU 1PN34 Cascade scope (PVS-2 equv) and PNV-57E driver googles (They flew Mi17s with this shit in Afghanistan)

My gen 1's rarely struggle in urban conditions unless it's a thunderstorm and the sky is very dark. You gotta get out pretty far to see what a nightvision unit is capable of (Away from any urban light pollution)

My experience with Gen 2 has been D300MS (PVS-5 equv) GSCI Gen 2 scope (PVS-4 equv)

working on the gen 3 stuff

[Hectic]

Ill start by sayin i dont own a nod, yet and ill tell u why. Some of the gen 1 stuff and ones that are labled gen1+ altho i belive that that is not actually a thing work ok, in an urban environment, or with a kick ass illuminator. But im not gonna waste money on something that is going to give most other night gision users the upper hand (ie they will see me running around with my big ol flashlight from a km off) some of the gen2 stuff i have seen isnt a whole heap better than the gen1, altho clearer and in ideal conditions (ie full moon, no tree cover, urban setting ect) and with a bit better i guess viewing distance. Now some gen2 (i guess gen2 + and those with better tubes and such) work really well, even without alot of ambient light ie in tue woods with alot of tree cover. Still not super awesome but definately useable without an illuminator. Ive seen one of the gsc "hybrid" units, it uses abthermal and nod tube on the same unit and those things are badass, ibwouldnt wanna know the cost, but if i could, id buy one of those. Botton line for me is cost vs useability. I would be happy with the gen2 plus stuff they offer, i think their "pbs14" would likely be the best bang for buck and i wouod sit down with them an basically ask for the best internals they could put in that housing, vs the best they could put in the pvs14 and then pic the one with the best price point. Rarely would ya need an illuminator with either of those, thus making them prety usefull and not making you a big glowing target for other users. Again this is just my opinion based on the research and small amount of in field testing ive done with others units, but i think ivemde a sound choice. I figure ill bb looking at 2-3000 out the door. Just waiting on tax return time lol
the only other i guesd issue is, im.not quite sure what is available for the general public to buy, i think gen3 is a no go, but some folks have it so there must be a way

[Red Dot]

The only hybrid unit I saw on their website sells for $19,000. Speaking with them you can purchase a Gen3, they didn't say they were not available for the public when I asked.

Pretty much sounds like Gen1s require a lot of IR illumination so it's going to be a lot like running around with flashlights, you'll need to know when, where and how long to keep it on to get the job done without compromising your position.

For sure I think they have decent tubes for Gen1. Everyone was talking about the fisheye effect but I honestly didn't notice it at all. I remember even looking at their security barrier on the rear door that has detailed construction with a lot of lines and it appeared normal and not distorted.

I should have asked to see through their Gen2 stuff while I was there.

[Kingsix]

Generally in night vision terminology + is supposed to indicate additional improvements or manufacturing techniques that are added into the image intensifier tube. They can be higher resolution, longer mean time to failure, Signal to noise or auto-gating and automatic brightness control systems.


Gen 1 + should refer to Gen 1 image intensifiers with technology to correct distortion or additional stages of amplification, bright light cutoff.

However companies these days use the + sign on all products as a marketing gimmick.

Lower end companies will sell gen 0 devices as gen 1+ as a way to upsell.

@Hectic
Funny thing is Gen 1 tubes actually have a higher working resolution than most gen 2 tubes. There is a experimental sight that combines a gen 1 tube with a gen 3 tube, l heard it was a experimental sight for a stinger missile.

A gen 2 tube may have better gain (Light amplification) than a quality gen 1 tube but it might lose in resolution.

[ThunderCactus]

YEAH! THIS GUY GETS IT ^^^^

The top end gen1 has good resolution, and incredible clarity (it has NO NOISE). Major downsides being the low amplification, halo and fisheye.

Well bottom end gen2 at ~$1200 is low res, very noisy. To the point where the greater amplification doesn't matter since you can't identify targets under the same lighting conditions as gen1. Less halo, but highly unlikely anything below mid grade gen2 will have autogating.

So effectively there's a huge price gap between top end gen1 (which is the lowest quality you should even look at) at $500-$700, and mid to high grade gen2 at $1500-$2200

That being said, the same is true for gen2 and gen3. The top end gen2 tubes are often times very comparable if not better than the lowest end gen3 tubes.

My D300HP gets noisier as it gets darker, but it needs to get pretty damn dark before I actually need to start using illumination.
At risky sun, the building at the first blacksite had a string of 4 pitch black rooms at one side. two rooms had outside doors. Near full moon conditions, but this was on the dark side of the building so the rooms were pretty much pitch black. Even then, I could still get around with my gen2 without having to use illumination, but I did need IR light just to spot obstacles.