Sniper Rifles and fps question

[WPJ]

I saw in the sniper certification that level 3 you can go over 500fps.

Does this not now classify the rifle as a firearm under the act and the sniper would then require a PAL?

Next trying to stir the pot just want to know the facts on this grey area.

Reason I am asking is I was given some rifles which were 800fps can I can't bring them back to Canada with out having a PAL, so I gave them back to the organizers.

Thanks.

[Ricochet]

In order to be considered a "regulated firearm" your gun must shoot over 500 FPS "AND" must a muzzle energy in excess of 5.7 joules. In order for airsoft guns to be importable into Canada, they must have a muzzle velocity between 366 FPS and 499 FPS with a 0.20g round. Two totally different scales for two totally different purposes. So no, you cannot bring those into the country, yet you do not need PAL for importation of other airsoft guns.

Sniper Certification Level III is generally recognized as an up to 550 FPS with a 0.20g round by certain groups around Canada, but not all. Most places have a sniper rifle limit of under 500 FPS, 480 FPS, or 450 FPS with a 0.20g round period. Also most places won't allow for a gun to be in excess of standard limits unless you are an experienced player, and they know who you are. The Sniper Certification is a good set of tools, but limits and who can use or exceed them is up to each field organizer or team, and may fluctuate wildly depending on where you're playing.

[AngelusNex]

500 fps at 7.something(I believe) joules which means 730 ish fps with .2s to qualify as a firearm in Canada. Your 800 fps still are too hot and frankly should NEVER be shot at another player.

[WPJ]

Ya I'm not questioning the other guns, they were given back to the orginizers before I left the event as I knew better.

The main question is with the sniper setting of 500 or 550, would that not make it go past or close enough to be too much gray area?

[BioRage]

Originally Posted by WPJ

Ya I'm not questioning the other guns, they were given back to the orginizers before I left the event as I knew better.

The main question is with the sniper setting of 500 or 550, would that not make it go past or close enough to be too much gray area?

What do you mean "Grey area?"

If the sniper setting is over 499, then it will be seized.

Any airsoft related item - SMG/PDW/Sniper/DMR/Rifle/Pistol MUST comply with the regulation of 366-499 FPS via CBSA. If not, it will NOT make it through.

[lurkingknight]

someone point me to this 500fps with a .2 being the upper limit please? I believe some of you are mixing it up with something else.

The muzzle energy before it becomes a regulated firearm is 5.7J if you get an airsoft gun up there, it's in the 700s with .2s The only way you can get up there is with HPA or gas of some sort.


edit: 5.7J is 785fps with a .2

[BioRage]

For the OP...

See link below quote, there's a bunch of info that should answer your Q

"Uncontrolled" firearms

(d) Low muzzle velocity/energy guns – Any barrelled weapon that is not designed or adapted to discharge projectiles at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 metres per second (500 feet per second) and at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or to discharge projectiles that are designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 metres per second (500 feet per second) and an energy exceeding 5.7 Joules. Both thresholds of 152.4 mps and 5.7 Joules must be exceeded for the firearm to be considered "controlled". This requirement exempts firearms that fire below the threshold velocity with a standard projectile, but exceed the threshold velocity when fired with a high-velocity projectile.
Note: The term air gun is a colloquial term referring to BB or pellet guns. Such guns operate either as spring-powered, gas-powered, or electrically powered. If the muzzle velocity of the air gun is less than 152.4 mps (500 fps)/5.7 joules but still able to cause serious bodily injury to a person, it may be considered an "uncontrolled" firearm. Airsoft guns and certain types of paintball guns may qualify as a replica firearm (see paragraph 49 of this memorandum).

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publicati...-2-eng.html#a4

[lurkingknight]

I see the confusion.. there is new wording on the most recent version.

If the muzzle velocity of the air gun is less than 152.4 mps (500 fps)/5.7 joules but still able to cause serious bodily injury to a person, it may be considered an "uncontrolled" firearm.

What does the / specifically mean, "and" "or"?

5.7J AND 500 fps is much different than 500 fps OR 5.7J

[leth1337]

It's been AND for a while afaik

[Heerven]

Originally Posted by AngelusNex

500 fps at 7.something(I believe) joules which means 730 ish fps with .2s to qualify as a firearm in Canada. Your 800 fps still are too hot and frankly should NEVER be shot at another player.

I'm not a sniper specialist but I guess Level 3 have minimum range of engagement. I guess the objective at 800fps is to get more range that you will not feel at distance more than regular AEG... Not to give you a second butt hole.

[lurkingknight]

my understanding was that it was "and" as well from the old version of the document.

also point me to a field anywhere in the world that will allow a 800 fps with .2 rifle.

[WPJ]

Ok lets forget I mentioned the boarder at all lease this will clear the question up I hope.

With the snipers they can go past 500fps on there qualifications and at some fields does this not turn that airsoft onto a firearm?

[AngelusNex]

If it was 500 fps OR 5.7 joules then putting .12 bbs in any air soft gun shooting 400 would make it a firearm.

[Ricochet]

It is "and". Basically it encompasses the fact that we switch round weights, round sizes, and material types. So if tomorrow someone develops an airsoft gun that shoots an 10mm or 4mm or whatever sized projectile, at "x" and "x" weight made of "x" and "x" materials, then there is a specific system in place to deal with. Both 500 FPS velocity "and" 5.7 joules must be exerted in order for the "regulated firearm" classification. Realistically for the sake of the law, 0.20g/6mm rounds are only used as a benchmark or in cases of importation. You can have an airsoft gun that shoots 800 FPS as long as it's kinetic energy was less than 5.7 joules, although that would be unlikely. Why is this system in existence you ask, when the old law was any device with a muzzle velocity of 500 FPS or more? Simple; I have a gun that is shooting a 0.20g round at 510 FPS so it's considered a firearm. I now change out my rounds to 0.25g and now I'm shooting 483 FPS, so now it isn't a firearm. I still made it more dangerous as a heavier round has more potential kinetic energy even at lower velocity. So a system that covers both velocity and energy were put into play. I can tell you that a gun that exceeds both 500 FPS "and" 5.7 joules could really hurt someone.

Importation and ownership, oddly enough, have two different scales for classification. Once a gun is legally imported at between 366 FPS and 500 FPS, it can be upgraded or downgraded outside of that range. Some people are concerned over the classification of "replica", which was the big problem back in the day. A replica is listed as any device that resembles a firearm with near precision, which would include almost any airsoft gun. It has been deemed though that a replica, for purposes of ownership and the criminal code, "cannot cause serious bodily harm". If it is capable of serious bodily harm, then it cannot be a replica. The benchmark for replica "used to be 407 FPS with a 0.20g round could cause bodily harm, then 366 FPS with a 0.20g round could cause bodily harm. This is where the CBSA got on the train, when they adopted the 366 FPS lower limit." Now, serious bodily harm is serious bodily harm. If I shoot you close range in the eye with a gun shooting 280 FPS, would seriously damage your eye? You bet it would.

The upper limit came from 3 different classifications of ownership. Anything above the replica limit at the time, either 366 or 407 respectively was considered an "airgun", below was a replica (if it mimicked a real firearm with near precision). Anything that exceeded 500 FPS "or" 5.7 joules was considered an "unregulated firearm", and anything that exceeded 500 FPS "and" 5.7 joules was considered a "regulated firearm". CBSA also adopted a maximum velocity of under 500 FPS with a 0.20g round so that anything coming in was over the replica limit but under the firearm limit. They just never got off that train.

So currently....

CBSA import regulations:
- 366 - 499 FPS with a 0.20g round is legal for importation.

Ownership regulations:
- "if" your gun mimics a real firearm with near precision, it "must" be capable of causing serious bodily harm to avoid the "replica firearm" classification which is prohibited.

- "airgun" is now a generic term that classifies airsoft guns and a few other devices, but has no real legal ramifications.

- any device capable of causing serious bodily harm, but has a muzzle velocity of under 500 FPS "and" 5.7 joules is considered and "unregulated firearm".

- any airsoft guns used in criminal activities are considered real firearms for the purposes of the criminal code.

FPS limits in play:
- completely dependent on each individual field, by each individual field owner, as long as they fall within the parameters of the law and possibly their insurances.

[FOX_111]

Generally, the fps limit is set in order to have 1j at impact.
1 joule is a general tested limit at wich the skin break. 1 joule is equivalent of putting a 280fps (old school stock AEG) at point blank with 0.20g on your skin and firing. It will hurt like hell, make a red welt, maybe even bleed a little, but that it.

So large open field with longer engagements distances allow 400fps. CQB field with closer engagement distances allow up to 350fps. That to mitigate injuries.

Snipers MED (minimum engagement distance) are set to have 1 joule at impact, using apropriate ammo. So a sniper chronied at 450fps (with .20g BB), firing a .30g BB with have a MED set at 40 feets. Inside that distance, the BB impact energy will be above 1 joule.

Just to clear things up, fps limits set on fields are for safety.
Fps limits sets by the border agency are for bullshit. I mean, to fall inside the regulations of what they beleive an unrestricted airgun should be.
Fps limits set in the criminal code are to define what a firearm is.

3 differents points of views for different goals. When playing, worry about field limit. When importing, worry about importation laws. When in trouble, talk to your lawyer about criminal laws.