Systema PTW vs. Modded high-end sniper rifles

[Fox62]

I thought of opening a new thread, as the subject had really veered off from the other thread topic.
Apparently, according to the PTW people, their guns have an effective range of 270 ft., OOTB.
Now, I play in a small sniper team, and we run the following guns: Fully upgraded, custom modded, 500 FPS, 440mm precision inner, WE SCAR GBB DMR; Fully upgraded, 480 FPS TM PSG-1; Fully upgraded, custom modded, 600 FPS, 629mm precision inner KJW M700. The SCAR and the PSG, both have poor groupings at 270 ft., and are more comfortable around the 230 ft. mark, the KJW can probably go to 300, still somewhat grouping, but the amount of work put into these guns is pretty big. I also haven't heard of the other top notch sniper platforms (VSR, Tanaka) going beyond the 300 ft. mark, after being absolutely dialed in. These are all properly measured distances, as opposed to the testimony of some guy who just spent thousands on a PTW (that's so realistic it doesn't even have any sort of recoil).
So, with a much shorter inner, and absolutely stock, do these PTW's have magic buckings or sumthin'? 'cos I ain't seein' much of a point in running a bolt action that requires thousands in upgrades and custom work, when for the same price you can have a gun that's out of the box at pretty much the same range, with beautiful groupings, and can shoot in full auto. Guess all the snipers out there are just THAT dumb.


Fox.

[Reckless]

it isn't out of the box exactly... they've had hop mod done...

oh btw ... barrel length and fps doesn't do much ...

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Reckless

it isn't out of the box exactly... they've had hop mod done...

oh btw ... barrel length and fps doesn't do much ...

If you get them from Double Tap, they have the hop-up mod done before the new owner takes possession.

[ryan1796]

I don't mean to insult you or other snipers out there, but I don't need a PTW nor an AEG to catch the sniper. The only two things I need is a pistol and quick feet.

And if it's one guy with PTW vs one guy with modded high-end sniper rifle, 99.9% PTW wins. It's the fact. Once they gets in your MED, it's out of your hand.

BTW 600fps airsoft gun is not an airsoft gun, it's a firearm.

[surebet]

Originally Posted by ryan1796

I don't mean to insult you or other snipers out there, but I don't need a PTW nor an AEG to catch the sniper. The only two things I need is a pistol and quick feet.

And if it's one guy with PTW vs one guy with modded high-end sniper rifle, 99.9% PTW wins. It's the fact. Once they gets in your MED, it's out of your hand.

BTW 600fps airsoft gun is not an airsoft gun, it's a firearm.

No it's not. Firearm threshold is 500ish (507?) fps and 5.7 joules.

With .2g, you need to shoot around 785 to break this, also known as you-got-to-be-fucking-kidding-me speeds.

[ryan1796]

Originally Posted by surebet

No it's not. Firearm threshold is 500ish (507?) fps and 5.7 joules.

With .2g, you need to shoot around 785 to break this, also known as you-got-to-be-fucking-kidding-me speeds.

Oh I though it was 600fps..from my PAL course..well anyway, anything above 500fps is just dumb. There is no fun at all.

[pancakedestroyer]

Originally Posted by surebet

No it's not. Firearm threshold is 500ish (507?) fps and 5.7 joules.

With .2g, you need to shoot around 785 to break this, also known as you-got-to-be-fucking-kidding-me speeds.

You should call your CFO or the CFC then and tell them this because they and the criminal code state otherwise.


(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second, or
(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second.

I see no "and" in there.

Gotta remember the laws on this stuff are so gray that when push comes to shove the end result will always be "what does the criminal code say?".

[Tex]

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...me_air-eng.htm

[pancakedestroyer]

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/FullText.html

[mcguyver]

It is "and" and not "or". The original law was worded as "or", until 2000 when the RCMP determined that many legal airguns could fire pellets in excess of 500FPS by using lighter-weight, common ammunition. This would have made 30 million estimated airguns in Canada now become a legal disaster. This was the "airgun fix" to bill C-68 and was the inclusion of the muzzle energy requirement. Both requirements must be met. This also works both ways, so that a guy can't claim that a light-load in a 9mm shooting 495 FPS suddenly makes the gun a non-firearm.

It was explained in depth in a Macleans article from 2000.

[surebet]

It also smoothed things a lot for paintball, even at 295 fps you're pushing around 13 joules with a pellet median weight of 3.2 grams. I believe there was a pre-existing exemption from a while back but this brought them back in the fold as well.

[ThunderCactus]

Barrel length makes very little difference, I had a 100mm 6.08 bore HFC pistol that shot with a 2" grouping out at 160 feet. And it was bone stock, 300fps.
The critical factors in range and accuracy are the hopup and the compression behind the BB. My VSR runs a 6.03 barrel only 420mm long, and it's DEAD accurate at 240 feet, and still accurate enough to hit people out to 300 feet.

Besides, like I said, you can't compare a sniper rifle to a PTW, they are TOTALLY different platforms. Especially a springer bolt action vs an automatic, totally unfair. PTW's are damn accurate, but you can't argue that having an air nozzle fixed to your cylinder and in the guaranteed fully closed position is just plain better for compression and consistency.

[krap101]

Originally Posted by Reckless

it isn't out of the box exactly... they've had hop mod done...

oh btw ... barrel length and fps doesn't do much ...

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Barrel length makes very little difference, I had a 100mm 6.08 bore HFC pistol that shot with a 2" grouping out at 160 feet. And it was bone stock, 300fps.
The critical factors in range and accuracy are the hopup and the compression behind the BB. My VSR runs a 6.03 barrel only 420mm long, and it's DEAD accurate at 240 feet, and still accurate enough to hit people out to 300 feet.

Besides, like I said, you can't compare a sniper rifle to a PTW, they are TOTALLY different platforms. Especially a springer bolt action vs an automatic, totally unfair. PTW's are damn accurate, but you can't argue that having an air nozzle fixed to your cylinder and in the guaranteed fully closed position is just plain better for compression and consistency.

I would have to disagree... to a point. Barrel length does matter, but only to the point that the bb stabilizes within the barrel. There isn't enough data out there yet to determine the relation, but up until that point, barrel length plays a huge role. Beyond that, it is true, that it doesn't make much difference at all (maybe a small increase in fps as long as you're bored up correctly)

Beyond this, barrel quality (finish, uniformity, diameter etc), compression, bb quality, and hopup are the determining factors in accuracy, so here we're more or less in agreement.

The PTW vs BA Sniper rifle is the question of efficiency, not of "accuracy". The PTW offers a greater volume of fire, at a very good accuracy, but shot per shot, assuming a perfect shooter, the vsr and friends take the day

As to fps, it does play a somewhat larger role, but because drag increases by the square of velocity, and a sphere is pretty bad anyways, the marginal gains are pretty small, but there is a definite advantage of higher fps. At a higher fps, it is easier to "dial in", as the flight trajectory is flatter. In addition, you can afford to go to heavier rounds, and assuming that the bb is perfect (which normally isn't the case with heavier rounds), then you'll have a more stable projectile because of the increased mass, less "lead" time for a moving target, and more brush penetration. It also increases your range and/or effective range.

Originally Posted by ryan1796

I don't mean to insult you or other snipers out there, but I don't need a PTW nor an AEG to catch the sniper. The only two things I need is a pistol and quick feet.

And if it's one guy with PTW vs one guy with modded high-end sniper rifle, 99.9% PTW wins. It's the fact. Once they gets in your MED, it's out of your hand.

BTW 600fps airsoft gun is not an airsoft gun, it's a firearm.

Once you get up there in "sniping", the problem will be finding the sniper, and then the problem of getting close enough to get the pop off with your pistol. At high velocities, a sniper is required to have a spotter (for us anyways), so no, it is not out of our hands. If you get the "jump" on a sniper will be a very rare occurrence, so I'd say 99.9% is a bit overkill, and making huge generalizations on position, cover, field, etc. So, no it is not a fact.

Oh, also snipers are required to have a sidearm (for us)

[Fox62]

Well, I'm a law student, so I could mention some case law on the matter of what the Supreme Court has defined as a firearm; then again, I'm from Argentina, so...

Really, saying "600 FPS isn't airsoft" is pretty dumb; we're talking airsoft, not airsoft in Canada, despite this being a canadian forum.
In my community, the rules are 330 CQB, 400 10 mts. minimum, 430 support, 10 mts. as well, but they have to carry a huge gun, use a drum, etc., 500 20 mts., semi only, 600 30 mts., bolt action only. Alright, hope that straightens it out.

On the other hand, what I'm really interested in finding out is if a PTW can really hit nice groupings at 270 ft., I find it ridiculous, given the amount of work a sniper rifle or DMR needs to achieve this kind of shots consistently. I mean, why do people bother with all that work into a sniper rifle that gets blasted in half by a gun that can shoot in full auto at almost the same range?
How can the design on PTW's hop up/nub/bucking be SO insane not even companies that specialize in sniper rifles can match it?
That's why it all sounded like an exaggeration of the qualities of the PTW.


Fox.

[ryan1796]

Alright, I get it you're from Argentina but why don't you go to your country's forum and make a thread? In canada, there are barely any games that allow you shoot over 500fps. So your thread is total useless on ASC.

Second, you said it's an exaggeration of the qualities of the PTW, have you ever see what happens when you put a red cylinder in PTW? I didn't see someone hit the target at 270ft personally, but I saw a PTW with red cylinder and it was a star wars laser gun like you said on the other thread.

If you can't believe it, buy one from Double Tap. Only for $1600 and get a red cylinder, test it yourself.

Agains, as Thundercatus said, it's pointless to comparing between PTW vs bolt action rifle.

Originally Posted by Fox62

Well, I'm a law student, so I could mention some case law on the matter of what the Supreme Court has defined as a firearm; then again, I'm from Argentina, so...

Really, saying "600 FPS isn't airsoft" is pretty dumb; we're talking airsoft, not airsoft in Canada, despite this being a canadian forum.
In my community, the rules are 330 CQB, 400 10 mts. minimum, 430 support, 10 mts. as well, but they have to carry a huge gun, use a drum, etc., 500 20 mts., semi only, 600 30 mts., bolt action only. Alright, hope that straightens it out.

On the other hand, what I'm really interested in finding out is if a PTW can really hit nice groupings at 270 ft., I find it ridiculous, given the amount of work a sniper rifle or DMR needs to achieve this kind of shots consistently. I mean, why do people bother with all that work into a sniper rifle that gets blasted in half by a gun that can shoot in full auto at almost the same range?
How can the design on PTW's hop up/nub/bucking be SO insane not even companies that specialize in sniper rifles can match it?
That's why it all sounded like an exaggeration of the qualities of the PTW.


Fox.