ENP: Extended Nub Project - Status: Nub Testing

[krap101]

Hey Everybody,

As the info from the alpha starts trickling in, I'm beginning to plan the specs for the beta and opening it up to volunteers.I'm also loosening the requirements as well as removing all "punishments". The New requirements are that you must post at least 6 grouping tests (my nub vs a "standard" nub at three ranges), where .25g+ is preferred. The beta kit is $15 ($12 for returning testers) and will include 1-2 nubs and 1 flat/nubless bucking. I plan to start testing a couple "procedures" before the end of the week and try to do a rest run out of an ultra soft silicone, but I will move on to urethane (it's in the mail currently) before the nubs are sent out, as suggested in the alpha thread.

I'm still new to the casting game, so I'm looking for some tips. I plan to make the cast the nub out of one piece, but I'm pretty sure I'll need some sort of reinforcement in the half circle region, and I'm wondering how I'd go about doing this. Although this is a guess, but I'd imagine casting the buffer directly onto the nub may attach, but I don't think the bond will be very strong, which is why I'm planning on going the one piece casting route. I'm thinking I can embed some sort of fiber in the top portion, and leave the bottom to be flexible. Besides the flat nub, I'm more or less open to new designs, I don't see any reason to make the buffer concave, because it is so soft, it provides the perfect concave every time. One thing I'm worried about on the bucking is how to get that super smooth surface that is always on buckings.

Here is an early drawing. I added "wings" so more securely attach to the hopup arm, and I've dubbed it my "Mighty Nub". RIP Billy Mays.

Airsoft Precision Dynamics

[ILLusion]

My beef with this, is the principal on why you are charging anybody ANY money to test a product that's not even final, and that you are ultimately going to be selling to profit YOU. These "customers" are doing research work for you, and they have to pay YOU to do it?

That sounds like a worse deal than the Chinese sweatshops I visit back in Asia! At least those 6 year old kids get PAID $0.50 a day!

Or are all of these paying customers buying in to a profit earning company share for their time and effort in developing a viable product to release to the market?

I realize there are costs associated in developing test products (raw materials, research & development time, packaging costs, interest on capital investment, plus shipping costs) - I am not new to that game. But I've *never* charged someone for something that I required the buyer to test, nor have I heard of such a thing before.

If the final product sale benefits YOU, then the least you should be doing right now, is eating the costs. If your concern is in people just trying to snag free stuff, then issue a positive reinforcing incentive (rather than the "punishments"), and you'll get way more feedback and viable testers.

For example, testers put up $XX (let's say $15), and if they return with the prescribed requirement of test results (you must post at least 6 grouping tests (my nub vs a "standard" nub at three ranges), where .25g+ is preferred), then they will get that $15 refunded as well as get to keep all the sample products as payment for their time and effort.

If shipping costs are prohibitive, then I recommend partnering up with a reputable retailer on the ASC forums whom you can ship the entire batch to in one go, who can then re-distribute the test package within the country. I can't imagine these nubs being that large, and shipping a standard lettermail across the country costs $0.59 flat rate (plus the cost of packaging.)

Just some food for thought...

[krap101]

If that is how the community feels, then I would just keep my tests internal until release. Once the school year starts back up, I'll have more than enough testers from my club, and that is still an option. Even at 15$ a kit, I am still fronting most of the cost in equipment and materials. In the alpha, the 5$ didn't even cover the shipping cost (I used an envelope, but it was too "thick" to be shipped by normal mail.) This test isn't just one iteration, but I'm going to have to make revisions which would need to be tested as well. Considering the final product would be included (which I thought I stated in the alpha thread), you're probably getting 4+ nubs and 2+ buckings over the course of the test, which I would consider a deal.

[ILLusion]

I didn't say that's a community-voiced opinion. Please don't mistake it as such. I'm just offering constructive criticism on the marketing/research strategy that you're proposing, as the price has gone up significantly from the alpha phase. The opinions stated are not representative of the ASC community, and are only my own opinions. Please do not take what I'm saying harshly - I respect anybody who can spend the time and effort to bring a new product to the market.

[krap101]

Sometimes I hate how things can be confused when only in type. I wasn't saying that I would pull back because that is how the community feels, but rather that there are many people who are willing to fund the test. With the initial designs, the nub was purely polycarbonate, and could be made quite cheaply. When the buffers were added, it increased cost by a pretty large amount, but I still sent out the nubs at the promised $5.50 (almost all of which was spent on shipping the nubs). Now that I am moving on to casting nubs, the cost went up again, but I am now offering a bucking in addition I don't think that the increase in cost is unreasonable. As a college student, I lack time and money, so this sort of expedites the process. Once I find reliable testers, I'll be able to front the cost of a few kits, but not in the quantity that is requested. If I were to test the nubs myself, I want to say the test stage would probably be 4-6x longer, and the tests would be much less comprehensive and you would only have my word on the performance of the nubs.

Maybe once I get some sort of foundation, I will be able to do the things you suggest, but for now, this is how I have to do things.

[ILLusion]

Totally understood. Given that situation, as long as your testers are also receiving the final product in the end, as an inclusion of "the package", then I think it's fair.

[krap101]

Before I continue... I've realized I have arrived at something that is very similar to the firefly buffer nub... My nub will act as a "passive concave" but is that enough to distinguish it? Earlier, during the alpha, it was pointed out that that nub resembled the firefly, but at that point it was quite different... Thoughts?

[Dynamo]

get a PTW hopup to work in an AEG and you might have something.

[krap101]

I've thought about that, but it definitely won't be a drop in upgrade from what I've seen. I believe rather than using a bucking-nub together, they use something like a nylon roller, with a two chamber hopup so you don't lose too much compression.

[Styrak]

So looking at the cross section of the hopup rubber, how are the results any different than a standard nub?

[krap101]

Originally Posted by Styrak

So looking at the cross section of the hopup rubber, how are the results any different than a standard nub?

For one, neither of them has a nub (if you shaved the nub off, it should be similar, but without the flaw). I should have made the outer diameter of the bucking flat on top (as well as the inside). I'm pretty sure the bucking will conform to the nub better because of this, but I'm still at least a few weeks from making actually making the bucking.

[SuperCriollo]

Well, as long as you dont charge anything to those who bought the testing samples, and give their money back if you cant come up with a final product, I dont see any problem. Is like Minecraft lol

[krap101]

I've finished my first test batch of nubs today and it went pretty well. Included in the test kit will be two nubs (duro 2A and 10A). I expect the 10A to provide more hop, so it might perform better with heavier bb's.

The buckings will be done by October, and will be included in the next kit.

Requirements for this test:
1) a shaved bucking
2) 3 groupings at one distance (30-60 yards), the 2A, 10A, and a competing nub to normalize the results. (SCS, PCS, Flat nub, stock nub, etc)

More details will be posted later

(I didn't have a penny, so that is a piece of eclipse gum as a size comparison)



Guess how many nubs are in the pile, and if you are the closest, you'll get a free nub pair/bucking set upon release!

Guesses will be accepted here HERE

[krap101]

Revised Requirements for this test:
1) a shaved bucking
2) 3 groupings at one distance (30-60 yards), the 2A, 10A, and a competing nub to normalize the results. (SCS, PCS, Flat nub, stock nub, etc)
3) ability to keep your airsoft gun in the same configuration for the duration of the program (end of 2011 at the latest, unless something breaks)
4) use of .25g+ bb's (.30+ is preferred; this type of bb will be used throughout the betas 1 and 2)

Requirements are pretty reasonable in my opinion, and details are posted on the facebook page. I have chosen 12-13 testers so far, and this will most likely be the cap for the "test kits", pending the reviews of the rest of the alpha testers. Details on the "experimental" kits are also on the facebook page.


Video from the first test is posted on facebook.Lighting wasn't the best, but the 2A overhopped .23g at ~15% and was level at around 10-13%. I wasn't able to test the 10A due to... battery problems... but the 2A should be the "standard" nub, and the 10A the dmr spec'd nub... but the 10A may overhop... even heavy bb's...

[krap101]

Beta 1 testing officially begins today, and will continue until October 31. Good Luck Testers!