"word I cannot say" ICS galil AR (400fps stock version)

[yuhaoyang]

got it yesterday I'll start with stuff I like
Pros: The receiver is really thick, as in there is lots of metal there, the stock seems to be made of solid steel rods, not hollow tubes, and it locks into place without much rattling; it has a bearing spring guide, and silver wiring along with a really ingenious hop-up system that uses a stiff spring to push a slightly modified AK hop-up unit against the mechbox; the mechbox itself is a V3, unsure of nozzle compatibility ATM, but more than likely it's just an AK nozzle; the gears are decent, not good, but will last a while, the thumb selector works, but not very well (see cons section), and the charging handle is pushed by a heavy spring, giving a nice tinny *clack* sound, although it is nowhere near the steel bolt of a real gun; there is a very comfortable amount of battery space, fitting a stick type 8.4 without any issue, and none of that stupid AK battery tray crap. Overall build MATERIALS are excellent With great trademarks
Cons: This is where I bash it endlessly; EVERYTHING wobbles, the handguard wobbles quite a lot, the front sight wobbles severely from side-to-side this I can`t fathom how to repair because it is held in only by two hollow pins, the night sight in the front wobbles front-to-back very severely, the magazine wobble is absolutely unacceptable; that said, it takes AK mags. The stock attachment point to the receiver wobbles quite a bit, it is a similar setup to the full stock AK plate thing that attaches to the receiver, except this is held together by 1 really big screw that won`t tighten enough to make the whole thing wobble-free; although it shouldn't be in any danger of breaking. IMPORTANT: The barrel is a two piece, held together by a total for four grub screws, I have strong fears that the barrel may just break apart if you man-handle it. The thumb selector is connected to the gearbox by a very simple modified AK selector plate, the thumb selector does not click at all, and can be confusing to change to full auto as such. The cylinder head is plastic, and the air seal is mediocre at best. The shimming out of the box was appalling, with the sector and bevel gear WAY overshimmed, I could not turn the gears by hand, after a reshim, and motor adjustment, the gears still are unusually loud; the body of the piston (not teeth) after about 2000 rds was getting damaged, with plastic shavings found in the back of the gearbox; the piston has the second teeth removed. The cylinder is brass, and made of really thick material, good or bad I don't know, but I'm not confident that the stock air seal components will work with aftermarket ones, but I was too stupid and reassembled it before I tested. The inner barrel was aluminium, and crap; I immediately replaced it with a systema one; the hop-up bucking is full of this brownish grease, and was disgusting; also made the hop-up somewhat useless.

FPS out of the box: ~430 with .20
External material quality: 9/10
External assembly quality: 7/10 (needed to tighten lots of screws)
External design quality: 3/10 (which idiot from ICS designed this?)
Internal material quality: 6/10
Internal assembly quality: 3/10 (have seen worse on a CYMA or DBoys)
Internal design quality: 8/10 (innovative internal design allowing for mag compatibility and better hop-up unit)
Overall: 6/10
Would recommend to: people that really want a galil, but do not want the annoyance of EBB from the KA, and people willing to do some modification (drilling through the outer barrel pieces, converting grub screws to actual screw to strengthen it, epoxying stuff to reduce wobble)
Otherwise, get something else from the classifieds, as it`s quite sad that ICS had to use some very nice materials, and the fuck it all up with the design and assembly.


EDIT: Stock wobble is fixable by torquing down the attachment plate screw A LOT, and I forgot to say it originally had front barrel wobble, but it was fixed by tightening the 2 grub screws holding the second piece onto the first barrel piece, the front sight wobble has yet to be fixed; I've now swapped out the spring for a modify S110+, and cleaned all the plastic shrapnel out, along with a re-shim and re-grease, it now has an ROF that sounds roughly around 600rpm (only determining by ear, will update if chronoed), works decently, and With systema 6.04, guarder clear, and madbull .25s, the accuracy is... decent, with the stock stuff, accuracy was horrible... Remember, REPLACE THE ALUMINIUM STOCK BARREL, and use it as a blowgun, or a manly slurpee straw, because that's all it's good for.

EDIT EDIT: the nozzle is proprietary, and DOES NOT SEAL AT ALL!, with a SP110 (which in my M16 would shoot 430), shoots 230 with .28s, or about 320 with .20s, I've tried to modify a V3 nozzle to work, but it doesn't, and I don't have the skill to figure out why. The cylinder head is also proprietary, which would be fine if it was metal; but it's plastic.

[cerealmaniac]

nice review. looking forward to pics

[The Saint]

The "SafeAirsoft" thing isn't meant to be thrown around like "Cansoft", that's not its purpose. "SafeAirsoft" is not commercially connected to Mach1. Please edit your title accordingly, thanks.

Did you chrony it at 430+fps? The understanding with Mach1 was that Mach1 wouldn't be selling guns at velocity above field limits.

[yuhaoyang]

Okay, my bad, although I can't edit the title, so admin please do it for me.
Another person chronied it (I was present that time) using .25s on a paintball thing at 395, so it's converted.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by yuhaoyang

Another person chronied it (I was present that time) using .25s on a paintball thing at 395, so it's converted.

Good to know, thanks man.

[Azathoth]

Stupid question...

If a safesoft gun arrives all rickety and horribly assembled is that the fault of the manufacturer or the fault of the individual/organization "downgrading" it?

From what I have read on other reviews a major complaint is the wobbly handguard area, but other area's should be fairly well put together.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by The Saint

Did you chrony it at 430+fps? The understanding with Mach1 was that Mach1 wouldn't be selling guns at velocity above field limits.

I have a problem with this. What is "field limits" in Canada mean? In Alberta the major clubs have higher limits than the rest of Canada. Last I checked Calgary limits are 420 AEG, Red Deer is 425, and Edmonton is 400-425. The gun shooting ~430 is within normally accepted margins of error in the province. There is grass roots talk starting in Alberta of raising our limits to 430 to be consistent with "safeairsoft" since the limits are so close already.

[Styrak]

Originally Posted by yuhaoyang

Okay, my bad, although I can't edit the title, so admin please do it for me.
Another person chronied it (I was present that time) using .25s on a paintball thing at 395, so it's converted.

Well that's still 430fps on 0.20's. I'm not sure what they're coming in at from overseas.

[Con Murder]

+1 Azathoth, is it manufacturer or retailer?

[AngelusNex]

Originally Posted by yuhaoyang

Okay, my bad, although I can't edit the title, so admin please do it for me.
Another person chronied it (I was present that time) using .25s on a paintball thing at 395, so it's converted.

Use advanced post edit. to edit the title

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by Azathoth

Stupid question...

If a safesoft gun arrives all rickety and horribly assembled is that the fault of the manufacturer or the fault of the individual/organization "downgrading" it?

"SafeAirsoft" as an effort to promote the improved status of airsoft in Canada is completely unrelated to the actual act of downgrading of these guns. Downgrading is done by the respective Canadian distributor, which is Mach1 for ICS, VFC and TSI. Please stop using the term "safesoft gun", it's not the intent.

I have a problem with this. What is "field limits" in Canada mean? In Alberta the major clubs have higher limits than the rest of Canada. Last I checked Calgary limits are 420 AEG, Red Deer is 425, and Edmonton is 400-425. The gun shooting ~430 is within normally accepted margins of error in the province. There is grass roots talk starting in Alberta of raising our limits to 430 to be consistent with "safeairsoft" since the limits are so close already.

And the BC has some 420, while ON is mostly =<400. However, variation on the manufacturer end can put a gun well over 430. I don't know how you run FPS limits where you are, but I've seen some hosts that allow for a variation, and some that set a FPS limit that already accounts for variation.

In facts, depending on the brand, the guns coming in legally are anywhere between 430-460. Therefore, trying to raise field limits to match them is a bad idea.

In additional, a grass roots talk does not equal a standard in place.

Finally, the businesses are doing their best to ensure that the supply of airsoft guns that beginners are most likely to tap into are not super hot.

[Azathoth]

Originally Posted by The Saint

"SafeAirsoft" as an effort to promote the improved status of airsoft in Canada is completely unrelated to the actual act of downgrading of these guns. Downgrading is done by the respective Canadian distributor, which is Mach1 for ICS, VFC and TSI. Please stop using the term "safesoft gun", it's not the intent.

My bad. I have the feeling that safesoft is going to be a trademarked branding strategy for Canada. I'm rather cynical.

I disagree with you desire to segregate safesoft with airsoft. Safesoft guns are different from the standard international versions. Safesoft guns are worked (tuned) prior to resale whereas standard manufactured 'stock' weapons go straight to the end user through the retail chain without modification.

That is 1 more person opening and mucking around with the guts of the gun, and putting it back together. The quality of the end product may not be the same as end manufactured intent. To add to that the person working on the gun is not a employee or trained by the manufacturer and to my knowledge there is no requirement to maintain quality control on the product. The review by the OP and the review available on other sites suggest (to me) that there was poor workmanship reassembly of the gun both internally and externally.

Originally Posted by yuhaoyang

The shimming out of the box was appalling, with the sector and bevel gear WAY overshimmed, I could not turn the gears by hand,

Comparison review: http://www.red-alliance.net/forum/in...?topic=13716.0

Internals

I tore the gun apart to take a look why the selector levers were a bit stiff. The gun comes apart very easily and quickly. It is mostly held together by grub screws of the same size, so you basically only need one Allen Key. I found that the screw which holds the trigger switch in place was scraping against the selector plate. There is a groove for the screw, but it is not deep enough. A quick fix with a Dremel Tool. Just deepened the groove a bit.
The mechbox itself is shimmed properly right out of the factory. I checked every gear and checked that they all mesh properly by torquing the box with each try. The gearbox has metal bushings.
The internals are standard. Nothing fancy. The spring is non-linear and the piston head seems better than your average.

So the question that really wasn't completely answered is who do we complain to if we get a safesoft gun that arrived and is in absolutely terrible state; retailer or distributor?

Originally Posted by The Saint

And the BC has some 420, while ON is mostly =<400. However, variation on the manufacturer end can put a gun well over 430. I don't know how you run FPS limits where you are, but I've seen some hosts that allow for a variation, and some that set a FPS limit that already accounts for variation.

In facts, depending on the brand, the guns coming in legally are anywhere between 430-460. Therefore, trying to raise field limits to match them is a bad idea.

I do not see how manufacturer variance is relevant. Safesoft guns are supposed to be reworked before resale.
Why is this a bad Idea? Please explain. Will it affect the import of safesoft guns?

Originally Posted by The Saint

In additional, a grass roots talk does not equal a standard in place.

When it's the admins and exec of the Alberta clubs it is beyond grass roots. Although not relevant their are private clubs playing with FPS minimums of 450-500 w0.2g. I believe it would be ideal if you clarified what the "field limits" are for the future and standardized the parts that are going into the boxes of the safesoft guns. Or downgrade the guns to shoot ~1joule

Originally Posted by The Saint

Finally, the businesses are doing their best to ensure that the supply of airsoft guns that beginners are most likely to tap into are not super hot.

I hope so. I would rather see safesoft guns be retailed at the 330 FPS ranges rather than ~400+.

[Crunchmeister]

People just aren't getting it that there is no such thing as a SAFESOFT GUN. The man who is the originator of Safesoft as a MOVEMENT, not a PRODUCT is telling you to disassociate the two and you still insist on labeling it as such, disagreeing with his position.

Bottom line: there is no difference between a "safesoft gun" and any other AEG. Safesoft is not a brand or marketing ploy like "Cansoft". The guns brought in under this initiative have had their velocities increased beyond what are accepted field limits in most of Canada to be in line with Canadian importation laws. As a result, many of the internals have been upgraded by the manufacturers to handle these strong springs, even though retailers have an agreement with The Saint to replace the springs before retailing the product. Whether or not retailers hold their end on this or not is moot. If they don't then the gun has internals that are capable of handling the high velocity spring that would destroy most stock mechboxes. That doesn't make these guns special or any more different than if you were ordering a custom Redwolf gun. They're simply guns upgraded at the factory. Plain and simple.

[Azathoth]

Originally Posted by Crunchmeister

People just aren't getting it that there is no such thing as a SAFESOFT GUN. The man who is the originator of Safesoft as a MOVEMENT, not a PRODUCT is telling you to disassociate the two and you still insist on labeling it as such, disagreeing with his position.

Bottom line: there is no difference between a "safesoft gun" and any other AEG. Safesoft is not a brand or marketing ploy like "Cansoft". The guns brought in under this initiative have had their velocities increased beyond what are accepted field limits in most of Canada to be in line with Canadian importation laws. As a result, many of the internals have been upgraded by the manufacturers to handle these strong springs, even though retailers have an agreement with The Saint to replace the springs before retailing the product. Whether or not retailers hold their end on this or not is moot. If they don't then the gun has internals that are capable of handling the high velocity spring that would destroy most stock mechboxes. That doesn't make these guns special or any more different than if you were ordering a custom Redwolf gun. They're simply guns upgraded at the factory. Plain and simple.

As I stated guns brought in under the safesoft initiative (better?) are suppose to be reworked. That does make them different than a straight factory international gun.

If you order a gun from Redwolf and bolt on upgrades it's not the 'stock' manufacturer gun anymore someone has opened it and worked on it much like the way guns suppose to be sold to the end user when brought in under the Safesoft initiative.

If Safesoft Initiative guns are sold AS IS to the end consumer without modification then I would drop the moniker.

EDIT:

I amend the above statement to

If Safesoft Initiative guns are sold AS IS to the end consumer without modification then I would drop the moniker if the other international versions of the gun where identical

[The Saint]

Thanks Crunch.

Azathoth, a good amount of the airsoft guns sold in the UK are downgraded by the retailers because that's what the law requires, which makes a great portion of all guns in the UK non-factory-direct by your standard. Would you insist on adding some sort of title to them as well?

The distributors are ultimately authorized by the manufacturers to make the downgrades. Whether the downgrades can occur requires permission from the manufacturer. SafeAirsoft as a moment recommends the downgrade, but it doesn't decide or participate in whether it actually happens.

Ultimately, higher FPS equal higher risk of injury. The distributors recognize that risk and downgrade the guns to minimize it. It is our position that if players want to play at a higher FPS, they're perfectly welcome to, but they must make the effort to make the gun hotter themselves.

[yuhaoyang]

On the box, it says "exclusively for canadian market" on a canadian flag.
I torqued down the screw on the stock quite a bit more, and it doesn't wobble anymore, front sight I think is fixable if one takes out the pins, and put some tape around them.