See through guns and the death of "airsoft"

[L473ncy]

EDIT: This is in response to Doombringer (in case that wasn't apparent)

Yeah fair enough but take the Phillipines/HK/China/Japan/etc. for example. Do you ever see kids getting in the news for shooting an airsoft gun at pedestrians? I think not. Sure they can get their stuff for dirt cheap but it's the attitude of the culture (I guess you can couple that with police who stand outside banks with AK-47's who shoot first ask questions later).

Here in Canada there is no luxury of such a culture. The airsofting community in Canada is "attacked" by soccer moms and the general anti-gun sentiment that is part of the Canadian culture. Couple that with retarded suburban kids who think they're "the shit" and a total-G-unit-gangster who think shooting at pedestrians and/or playing on the street is OK and you can always "blink fast" as an alternative to proper eye protection, well there's a big problem.

I don't think clearsoft is the direct problem but contributes to it. I'm still on the fence about the state of airsoft and whether or not clearsoft is good or bad for the community. Like I said it's much easier for me to introduce friends to the sport and tell them to spend $450-550 for gun and gear than before where the entry price was significantly higher. BUT at the same time proliferation has reduced the controls that we had previously enjoyed which was to basically to mentor players and slowly expand the sport making sure that 99.999% of the players in Canada had passed through here and were competent and knowledgeable about the basics of the sport after being around for a bit and getting help from some senior members on the field.

These days 16 year old joe schomoe from down the "'burb" can get a gun with no intention to become part of the community and in turn do something stupid with said gun.

[Daiviet]

Originally Posted by ginnz

to the OP....

come on man. wake up. in all reality, if its a clear piece of crap 60.00 (overpriced gun), its still a plastic BB shooting toy.

man, i cant believe so many of the elitists on board..... i mean, to an outsider, most people would think that anyone who spends 500 - 1500 on a bb firing toy is an idiot....grown men, wearing bdu's and all geared up with throat mikes calling out "alpha tango bla bla", toting plastic shooting bb guns and playing army..... and the high priced gun owners sitting there smirking at a guy with a "clear" gun.... see where this is going? it all seems rather foolish.

to me the death of airsoft, like many hobbies is in the attitudes of those who are in the hobby..... case in point, im involved with RC Heli's..... most of mine are between 800.00 (for small 450's) and up to 3200.00 for my Trex 600E, and if im at the field and some kid comes along with a piece of crap RTF blade 400, i tell him, good for you, and if he asks for any help, ill spend the whole afternoon, helping him set up his swash plate or gyro or whatever, help him learn to hover, ect.... and never tell him he's stupid for buying an eflyte rtf bird.... just encourage him and hope he hangs in such a tough hobby, and doesnt get discouraged..... unfortunately there seems to be just the opposite attitude in this hobby..... guys immediately jumping down a noobs throat, or assuming so many negative things in a simple post.

dont get me wrong, im not saying all guys are like that! just that i see that attitude around alot..... thats the kind of stuff that attributes to the death of a hobby IMO.

Get out of my hobby.

[cbcsteve]

Originally Posted by Daiviet

Get out of my hobby.

I concur

[Brian McIlmoyle]

But A lot of guys are missing the point..

My point is.. there is little commitment necessary to participate any more.

the former team mentoring process is no more..

Used to be that you needed a pretty good chunk of change to get started in any significant way.. this kept the ratio of punters to players in check

sure there are always boneheads that don't get it... but if it cost that bonehead a grand to get through the door ... a lot never bothered to try.

all I am saying is that I think we need to construct a barrier to entry to deflect the punters and tourists.

AV used to serve as a gatekeeper... even that is gone in any real sense.


There is no gatekeeper.. the gates are wide open .. anyone who has a half assed desire to jump in a game can.

[ginnz]

Originally Posted by Daiviet

Get out of my hobby.

why do you say that? all your doing is driving my point further home....

and to The Saint, i see what your saying, and understand completely.

and to the guys who say getout of my hobby. well, as far as i am concerned, i never was in it. im simply collecting these things, and like to build them up, and work on them. no running around playing army, i got out of that mode at twelve years old, and after i left the reserves....i see your either still in the forces of some kind, or the latter. ;-)

[Roses.A.T.W.]

Well then what do you suggest we use as this new barrier?

[swatt13]

Originally Posted by Skruface

Personally, I think crapsoft should be treated the same way we treat bb guns on this forum...

We shouldn't promote it, and we ought to send people on their way to find a crapsoft forum if they want to talk about it or deal in it.

Originally Posted by The Saint

I don't think this will kill airsoft, provided that we make a firm stand against it here and now.

well those two quotes go hand in hand, if there was a way to show you how much i agree this should happen id do it. clearsoft use to be banned in the classifieds. no LQAEG (low quality aeg) should be allowed. sorry, if you want to be a part of this community you do so on the coimmunities terms, not your own.

i agree get the hell out of my sport, you completley missed the entire essence this sport stands for. its not about "more fun" less realism" its ALL about the the realism, its what this sport is built on, its the foundation, its the lifeblood its the air this sport breaths. more fun, less realism... cmon, that is just the stupidest thing anyone could say. if you honsetly believe that statement your hopless. go play paintball with an attitude like that. if you dont want to don a set of bdus and vests, hey, go put a pair of coveralls on, if you dont want to yell alpha bravo, go yell SMASH ONE AT THE 30! if you dont mind having a no realistic gun, go get a marker. that statment isnt even applicable with this sport, if it was more about fun and less about realism, then what in the all fuck are you doing here!!?? why do you care to buy a clear replica? why do you buy the accessories for them!? if you didnt care about realism, youd be playing another sport, so obviously the realism means something. if your more worried about haveing fun and not doing a quality impression, go play counterstrike.

this community (this website along with the canadawide community) is for people who are into airsoft for the right reason, who enjoy the realism, who see it as a way to honour those served and serving, if your not and dont and can admit it, great! thanks, but remove yourself from the community in which you dont belong. quite poisoning the air and blood of the community in which the rest of us wish to stay in. many people have worked hard to make this community what it is, and it is plain slefish and unfair to have clueless, ignorant people come in here and piss all over it. shame on you for contibuting and being apart of that. clearsoft IS a poison and is eroding the sport and the community. we watched what happened to paontball when it was released to the public. you lost all control of the sport and it was flooded with 12yo snot nosed kids who didnt give a fuck about sportsmanship, good attitudes, comradery. it was about egos, smakc talk and all around shit. i left that sport for this and now i can see it happening again. except the unbelievable part is that the snot nosed shit heads are 18+ who should have the self awareness to see that "oh wait a minute, i dont quite belong here, but instead of leaving, im going to whine and snivle cuz i cant have it my way. that guy shouldnt be able to use his 2k ptw cuz its better than my 200$ kraken." you know what boofucking hoo. does that work at the race track? does the retard who shows up with his moms 94 station wagon get to run the show and tell the guys with blown stangs that theyre not allowed to race cuz theyll beat him, or tell them theyre rediculous because they spent so much money on their cars? does the kid who shows up for hockey try outs get to tell the other players theyre not allowed to use theyre skates and stick because theyre better than the ones he could afford? no. you know what happens there? you go home and do one of two things, decide you want to play on that level and make some changes to yourself, or you walk away. but you dont whine and snivle and try to change something thats already established, and been that way longer than youve probly been alive. you cant go play in the nhl with street hockey equipment, you cant go play baseball with softball equipment, you cant go race in indy or nascar with a gocart. if you want to be a part of something, you conform to the way it is, not change it to suit your budget or attitude. its called being a man. look at the situation and decide what your father would do. would your father cry foul and cry about how its not fair and run around with a fat lip and crocadile tears telling everyone theyre stupid for being better than him?

this isnt a convenient sport. this isnt a cheap sport. this isnt a part time sport. if your not ok with that. go scrapbook, or crochet, but dont fucking cry about it.

[HGI]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

But A lot of guys are missing the point..

My point is.. there is little commitment necessary to participate any more.

the former team mentoring process is no more..

Used to be that you needed a pretty good chunk of change to get started in any significant way.. this kept the ratio of punters to players in check

sure there are always boneheads that don't get it... but if it cost that bonehead a grand to get through the door ... a lot never bothered to try.

all I am saying is that I think we need to construct a barrier to entry to deflect the punters and tourists.

AV used to serve as a gatekeeper... even that is gone in any real sense.


There is no gatekeeper.. the gates are wide open .. anyone who has a half assed desire to jump in a game can.

Brian McIlmoyle, why are you so worked up about new young people starting? Fuck if someone wants to use a $60 gun let them, it's huge advantage to you since your $1000+ gun hopefully shoots better.

I have a feeling your upset that you spent a lot of money to play army barbie and go up extra early to organize all your gear twice and put on make-up when some dude showed up in jeans/hoddy and lit you up with a $60 clear gun.

Sound about right?

[Daiviet]

Originally Posted by ginnz

why do you say that? all your doing is driving my point further home....

and to The Saint, i see what your saying, and understand completely.

and to the guys who say getout of my hobby. well, as far as i am concerned, i never was in it. im simply collecting these things, and like to build them up, and work on them. no running around playing army, i got out of that mode at twelve years old, and after i left the reserves....i see your either still in the forces of some kind, or the latter. ;-)

So you're saying the typical airsofter is either someone who is still in the forces, or has the mindset of a twelve year old. Once again I must reiterate: Get out of my hobby.

Once again, the point isn't the fact that new guys are picking up sub $200 guns, it's the fact that any shitheaded 18 year old can pick up a $200 gun and show up to a field and play without establishing themselves in the community. If that shithead creates problems either intentional or not, and either through their actions or words, no one knows who he/she is, and they'll never be held responsible for their actions. Sure they'll get kicked off the field, but then they spread the word that airsofters are assholes (because admit it, most people who get kicked off fields think they're the superior ones) and they still take no huge loss to themselves. (Steve, I hear you're still getting a lot of KTMT at Defcon. I trust you've taught them well.)

From what I've observed, sure there are guys on here who have the clear/smoked reciever guns. I've played alongside a few and they've been good, showing that gear doesn't reflect skill. These guys however have wanted to move on from their ENTRY LEVEL gear into more intermediate stuff. My problem lies with the random guys who I've never heard of before show up with this stuff on the field, without an account on ASC, without anyone on the field being able to vouch for them. A lot of the time these people don't have a clue on safety, how to handle their weapon outside a game area. Case and point is RIGHT HERE

People tend to think a bit more when they've actually established themselves and a reputation amongst a community. Their actions tend to reflect that as well. It's usually a sad day when an established member disgraces themselves in the eye of the community.

Once again, in large text for EVERYONE to see:

THIS ISN'T A DEBATE BETWEEN CLEAR LOWER END AIRSOFT STUFF AND HIGHER END AIRSOFT GUNS. This is a debate on how easily accessible the clear lower end airsoft stuff has made entry to our sport TOO EASY for anyone on the street who wants to play. Due to this influx, we get newbies who are Less Commited to learning safety, rules, and regulations. And because of this, it's creating a noticable gap in the airsoft community between the veteran crowd and the newer players

You want to know more about me and how I learned from this? Too bad if you say no, I'm going to tell you anyways.

I got into airsoft through a friend who had been playing for years who taught and mentored me into this sport. I was told to go onto the forums and read up and learn. I watched Greylocks mercilessly butcher down any stupid newbie who was too damn lazy to search or didn't take the advice that they asked for. I learned to read, do research, and stay away from shit quality because buying shit was buying twice. Instead of opting for a shit m4 from walmart, I opted for buying a brand new TM P90 off the classifieds for around the 500 mark. Before I sent the money, I had to say myself: "As soon as I click this send button, I'm now committed to this sport and should learn how to integrate myself into the community" I doubt I would have done the same with a sub $200 gun that I bought off some random internet website.

So before you or anyone else comes in here again accusing us of not mentoring newbies, you better take a step back and look at the whole situation.
Because of the amount of new players, it is too hard for such a small community to be able to keep up with teaching every newbie the fundamentals to our sport. Idiots get by, creating a tension between vets and newbies.

[Gonzo Sleeper]

if 1 or ten people show up on the field with clear guns..they should be treated with the same respect as the vets...this isnt the military this is airsoft. take the time to teach them the rules.. its your job as vets to teach the new people the ropes. Im sure the vets were taught the same way. Everyone was a noob and everyone shouldnt forget that.

[Daiviet]

Originally Posted by Mudder

I think you hit the nail right on the head!

You know, you should watch what you say about SOMEONE YOU HAVE NEVER MET IN PERSON. Brian is not someone to care about something as trivial as that.

[HGI]

Brian McIlmoyle, sorry if this seems harsh but this is what it seems like to me.

(to get this out of the way)
My concern is that people can now "get into airsoft" on their own.. they don't need any sort of indoctrination .. no skills and no knowledge required.
Game admins, Field rules, Tailgate meeting before every game to point out and reduce risk. If there's a idiot they're 99.99% of the time asked to leave or kicked off the field.

(Now this)
Used to be that you needed a pretty good chunk of change to get started in any significant way.. this kept the ratio of punters to players in check

In my other, other life, I teach Martial arts.. One of the things we do is fight with steel weapons in Armour to submission.
The bar to entry to that level of participation is $5000.00 or more in equipment and 3+ years of training.

I don't care if I get a warning or temp ban for this but I don't think I like you at all Brian. It seems like your here bragging that you drive around in your brand new sport car all done up, your gold membership, bragging how you spent so much to get into this sport, bragging how it cost $5000 + in gear alone just so you hit each other with metal polls.

If you have all this money to burn then go ahead and buy a shit ton of 'real airsoft' guns and start handing them out to those less fortunate players who show up with what they can and TRY!

I don't know when the last time you checked the employment status here in Canada but the unemployment rate is record high right now. Take your money, your 24k gold toy gun and your pretty real un-issued military prom dress and play the game or find another hobby like Car Racing, Buying Islands ext ext.

[Janus]

Sounds like you need a time out, little buddy.

Brian has contributed more to this sport and community than you could possibly comprehend. I think he is well within his right to speak his mind and back it up with relevant information that pertains to his qualifications.

[Gonzo Sleeper]

And I think EVERYONE should be able to speak their mind including the person above you.
Money should not warrent qualifications...
and from what you have on your mesaage bar right above me you shouldnt say anything as it shows you drink while you play...good on you! have a nice day

[Torque]

Why not just avoid games or host or clubs that don't meet your minimum load out requirment. This seems more of the host and club owners responsablity. Just my 2cents.