Clarification on gas powered airsoft over 500 FPS

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Killer

Prove it....put your money ware your mouth is...show me one iota of "official" documentation on this. All the evidence i have provided thus far...including CITT rulings from CANLII, have been self explanatory...unless you can provide proof, i would kindly suggest you back down!

Why are you asking me for ""official" documentation", when I only stated that your previous post simply repeats what many other posts here have said?

As we've already said, the 407fps rule from the CITT rulings are not law. You can read the Criminal Code for yourself. CITT and RCMP can make shit up and easily back out of it, especially when it's not official. The fact that McGuyver has tried approaching RCMP for their mysterious 407fps report and has gotten nothing should indicate the unaccountability we're facing.

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by The Saint

Why are you asking me for ""official" documentation", when I only stated that your previous post simply repeats what many other posts here have said?

As we've already said, the 407fps rule from the CITT rulings are not law. You can read the Criminal Code for yourself. CITT and RCMP can make shit up and easily back out of it, especially when it's not official. The fact that McGuyver has tried approaching RCMP for their mysterious 407fps report and has gotten nothing should indicate the unaccountability we're facing.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Are you for real or are you just trying to get a reaction out of me?! Have you read any of the links i have posted....lol.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Killer

Are you for real or are you just trying to get a reaction out of me?! Have you read any of the links i have posted....lol.

I've read those links half a dozen times before and understood them, I'm not quite sure you have. I have no interest in getting a reaction out of you.

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by The Saint

I've read those links half a dozen times before and understood them, I'm not quite sure you have. I have no interest in getting a reaction out of you.

With all due respect (I'm really not trying to make any enemies here!!!) but if you read the CANLII links to the CBSA and CITT appeals cases, you would CLEARLY see that airsoft according to the CBSA and CITT are legal and a non issue if they meet the "over 400FPS" rule...period! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Danke]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Killer

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Are you for real or are you just trying to get a reaction out of me?! Have you read any of the links i have posted....lol.

Is this the link?

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/E/pub/cm/...html#P99_16503

Where inside the body of the memo it states that "most air soft are guns are replica firearm (sic)" shortly after it states a "replica firearm is a prohibited device".

Maybe if someone makes a replica of an "Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model Air Rifle" it will slip through the cracks.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Killer

With all due respect (im realy not trying to make any enemies here!!!) but if you read the CANLII links to the CBSA and CITT appeals cases, you would CLEARLY see that airsoft according to the CBSA and CITT are legal and a non issue if they meet the "over 400FPS" rule...period! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

No, you're seriously failing to understand what we've been trying to tell you. Do not trust the CITT, they're a panel of people who don't care about replica firearms beside saying no to them at appeals. Do not trust the RCMP "experts" at the appeals, they're only saying stuff that makes their job easy and CITT want to hear.

The reference to the 400+fps rule is not a law, just a pseudo-policy. That rule affords absolutely no legal protection, short of getting it in writing from multiple offices within the RCMP and CBSA. They have consistently rejected that. If called upon the 400+ rule, they can easily go, "oops, we meant over 500fps and 5.7J, sorry still no cigar".

If you read the very link you posted from the CBSA (the memo), it'd indicate that the official and publicized position is one based on the Canadian Criminal Code figure of over 500fps and 5.7J, with no mention of the 400+ rule. That's because the CBSA generally defers to the technical expertise (or there lack of) of the Canadian Firearms Centre on the issue. And as you can see from the CFC's own publicized position, there is nothing about the 400+ rule. There is only what is in the Canadian Criminal Code.

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by Danke

Is this the link?

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/E/pub/cm/...html#P99_16503

Where inside the body of the memo it states that "most air soft are guns are replica firearm (sic)" shortly after it states a "replica firearm is a prohibited device".

Maybe if someone makes a replica of an "Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model Air Rifle" it will slip through the cracks.

And whats your point?
Please explain!

I'm ONLY talking about airsoft over 400FPS...not "ALL" airsoft.

This discussion is specific to one area of airsoft!

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by The Saint

No, you're seriously failing to understand what we've been trying to tell you. Do not trust the CITT, they're a panel of people who don't care about replica firearms beside saying no to them at appeals. Do not trust the RCMP "experts" at the appeals, they're only saying stuff that makes their job easy and CITT want to hear.

The reference to the 400+fps rule is not a law, just a pseudo-policy. That rule affords absolutely no legal protection, short of getting it in writing from multiple offices within the RCMP and CBSA. They have consistently rejected that. If called upon the 400+ rule, they can easily go, "oops, we meant over 500fps and 5.7J, sorry still no cigar".

If you read the very link you posted from the CBSA (the memo), it'd indicate that the official and publicized position is one based on the Canadian Criminal Code figure of over 500fps and 5.7J, with no mention of the 400+ rule. That's because the CBSA generally defers to the technical expertise (or there lack of) of the Canadian Firearms Centre on the issue. And as you can see from the CFC's own publicized position, there is nothing about the 400+ rule. There is only what is in the Canadian Criminal Code.

" 2. Air guns that meet the Criminal Code definition of a firearm, but that are deemed not to be firearms for certain purposes of the Firearms Act and Criminal Code.

These are air guns with a maximum muzzle velocity of 152.4 meters or 500 feet per second and/or a maximum muzzle energy of 5.7 joules or 4.2 foot pounds.

Such air guns are exempt from licensing, registration, and other requirements under the Firearms Act, and from penalties set out in the Criminal Code for possessing a firearm without a valid licence or registration certificate. However, they are considered to be firearms under the Criminal Code if they are used to commit a crime. Anyone who uses such an air gun to commit a crime faces the same penalties as someone who uses a regular firearm.

The simple possession, acquisition and use of these air guns for lawful purposes is regulated more by provincial and municipal laws and by-laws than by federal law."

End of story!

[Danke]

I have always read that as +500 firearm and normal rules apply.

(b) The term air gun is a colloquial term referring to BB or pellet guns. Such guns operate either as spring-powered, gas-powered, or electrically powered. Virtually, all air guns are firearms, as they meet the definition of a firearm in section 2 of the Criminal Code. When the muzzle velocity of an air gun exceeds 152.4 m per second (500 FPS), it is considered a firearm and must meet the licensing, registration, and transportation requirements of the Firearms Act.

(c) When the muzzle velocity of an air gun is less than 152.4 m per second (500 FPS), it is still considered to be a firearm, but is exempt from the licensing, registration, and transportation requirements of the Firearms Act. Such air guns are exempted only from certain provisions that can be found in section 84(3) of the Criminal Code.

[Shinjin_MC]

500+fps AND 5.7joules = firearm btw

[The Saint]

Not end of story. Your grasp of the situation remains incomplete. There is no magical category below the legal joule/fps definition of real firearm. When a device fails to meet the joule/fps requirement, it can be one of two things. It can be an Imitation Firearm or a Replica Firearm. Imitation Firearm is a category that include all things meant to shoot like real guns but do not closely resemble real guns, ex. paintball markers. Replica Firearm are things that very closely resemble real guns, and Replica Firearms are considered Prohibited Devices, which are controlled Federal law (Criminal Code).

If you read the CITT appeal, the emphasis is on resemblence to real firearms, because it is that resemblence that makes airsoft guns Replica Firearm and a Prohibited Device. They spend most of each report emphasizing the resemblence.

It is inconsequential in the Criminal Code that airsoft guns also shoot, because they do not meet the criteria for real guns. The current law only cares if a gun shoots hard enough to be a real gun. If it does not, then the question is whether or not it is a Replica Firearm, not whether or not it shoots all. The current law is not written to protect people from guns with unsafe joule/fps, only to protect us from deadly ones. For example, paintball markers regularly break the 5.7J limit, but are not considered real firearms. Still, if you attempt to import say, a RAP4, which closely resemble a real firearm, it is treated as a Replica Firearm and a Prohibited Device. This is despite the fact that according to the law, based on the muzzle energy criteria, RAP4 is not a Replica Firearm but in fact a real firearm (though not a real M4, because it is not cartridged or centrefired).

[Shinjin_MC]

no, not end of story, but everyone seems to be tossing around 500 so I wanted to add the 5.7j

paintball markers, afaik only break 5.7j because the projectile is quite heavy, even though its punted out at a lower velocity

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by Shinjin_MC

500+fps AND 5.7joules = firearm btw

We already know this....your point?

[Dog Face Killer]

I'm drafting a letter as we speak to the CFC/RCMP.

If you have any "specific" questions you think are valid and want answered, please post them here ASAP.

In order for me to include your questions with my draft, they MUST be concise and too the point, otherwise i will not include them.

Once i get a response, i will make the document available for review and reference.

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by The Saint

Not end of story. Your grasp of the situation remains incomplete. There is no magical category below the legal joule/fps definition of real firearm. When a device fails to meet the joule/fps requirement, it can be one of two things. It can be an Imitation Firearm or a Replica Firearm. Imitation Firearm is a category that include all things meant to shoot like real guns but do not closely resemble real guns, ex. paintball markers. Replica Firearm are things that very closely resemble real guns, and Replica Firearms are considered Prohibited Devices, which are controlled Federal law (Criminal Code).

If you read the CITT appeal, the emphasis is on resemblence to real firearms, because it is that resemblence that makes airsoft guns Replica Firearm and a Prohibited Device. They spend most of each report emphasizing the resemblence.


Wrong....the focus is on weather or not it meets ALL three of the requirements as a "replica"...not just one or two of the three!


It is inconsequential in the Criminal Code that airsoft guns also shoot, because they do not meet the criteria for real guns. The current law only cares if a gun shoots hard enough to be a real gun. If it does not, then the question is whether or not it is a Replica Firearm, not whether or not it shoots all. The current law is not written to protect people from guns with unsafe joule/fps, only to protect us from deadly ones. For example, paintball markers regularly break the 5.7J limit, but are not considered real firearms. Still, if you attempt to import say, a RAP4, which closely resemble a real firearm, it is treated as a Replica Firearm and a Prohibited Device. This is despite the fact that according to the law, based on the muzzle energy criteria, RAP4 is not a Replica Firearm but in fact a real firearm (though not a real M4, because it is not cartridged or centrefired).

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