Illegal Drug use during Airsoft Games

[pusangani]

Airsofter's Wish Foundation?

BM, it did sound personal the way it began, Stoners Vs Nerds - the final conflict! possible game scenario? Stoners can only walk not run? nerds can only use pistols, no heavy weapons...

Kurgan, you and your local community should deal with this, talk to the game hosts/field owners in the area and see what can be done, ASC as a website has nothing to do with what your local community does.

Originally Posted by Malice Army

Why , what are you gonna do?

Easy there Chuck Norris

[BloodSport]

Okay I keep hearing that we are going to enforce it if you are caught smoking on a play field. Who is going to spend the time contact all play field owners and have them sign on and agree to this? By my rough count there is some 500+ across Canada and thats been on the very low end. By enforcing it here you must have their agreement, otherwise if I'm not mistaken you can open a can of legal worms (slander/liabel/etc) if a field gets dragged into a fight or issue and they were not aware of "your rules".


Also, if you are going to draw the line at illegal drugs causing the issues. Then I have to honestly ask why not add legal drugs to this as well? After all you can get a presciption to legal pot.

If a person is "high" on painkillers and playing they can be in the same mental state as a person on pot. Are we now going to require doctors notes to be allowed to play when we have a head cold?

Don't get me wrong, I fully agree with playing in a sober state of mind. At the same time though I do not see anything wrong with 1 or 2 beers during a lunch break.

It's a fine line, define the line first which has not been done here, state strong reasons why some drugs are allowed versus the others. I'm sorry but the "it's illegal" is not a strong reason its the easy cope out. To me if your playing in an altered state of mind whether from pot, red bull (etc), Tylenol, or Buckleys there is not much difference.


Like I and a few other Verifiers in the private section asked, Kurgan have you called the local authorities on these people? If not, then why are you not practicing that which you want preached? Thats the first step. Legitiamize your self and the sport locally by reporting misuse. That is always the first and strongest step.

[Mist3r.B]

Originally Posted by The Saint

AEGs very much qualify as weapons, if you read the Criminal Code.



I think you contradict yourself, Brian. By virtue of being a meeting and information clearing house, ASC has a place in this issue because it's happening through ASC. It's like saying a 10-yr old kids game played in a public park (or worse, some sort of racist-themed scenario game) posted on ASC would have no impact on ASC. Any meeting and information clearing house is nature defined by the quality of meeting and information sharing that take place upon it. But giving power to admin to revoke AV status base on saying of game organizer seem over the top.

Fist up you'd need solid proof of consumption witch would be very difficult to gather.

Forget revoking AV status. Is it really that hard to make a rule about no alcohol and drugs at games post on ASC? People can arrange games with alcohol and drugs all they want via PM or off ASC, but just to nip it in the bud now, no one should be promoting any public game that features alcohol and drugs as part of play through ASC.

Reading everybody's post it seem every body agreed on the fact that an airsoft game is no place for intoxicated persons. So far I've yet to see a game advertising Open bar and a coke table in the safe zone. So from that I think the stand against substance abuse in game is taken.

Organizer have all right to refuse/expulse player with inappropriate behaviors off the game. They can also exchange blacklist of problematic player. However, removing the AV status solely on the testimony of a game organiser seem far fetch to me. Accusation should be back with solids evidences wich would be a pain to gather.

[Frankie]

Could you not convince your local organizers to opt for a stronger stance against weed and alcohol at games? That would seem more logical than trying to turn the public trading square into an execution platoon based on an ideology that's often debated.

Owners and organizers can state explicitly - no drugs or alcohol on the field - if they're against it. If ANY explicit game rule is broken, by anybody, that person should be taken aside, informed of the rules and expected not to do it again. If that person consistently breaks the rules, then he/she can be banned from games/fields by the owners/organizers. Any more policing and you're turning this into a witch hunt.

Similarly, if that person breaks ASC rules, then he/she can be banned by ASC. ASC is a trading post where games are announced and hobbyists gather, not a regulatory body. It has no authority on the field.

[Shrike]

Originally Posted by Sharpe's Revenge

On a side note i hate this argument. People that take over the counter medications that zonk them out are NOT permitted to drive, use heavy machinery, or handle weapons while on said medication. I love my beer, but I would never jump behind the wheel after drinking, or go to work, or operate machinery, etc etc etc. Its not mature, nor professional to do so. When i see guys smoke a joint and them jump right behind the wheel it drives me NUTS. The effects it has on your body are NOT the same a ciggarette ( which I dont smoke either ) and no amount of pretending will make it so.

Actually Nicotine is THE most addictive substance known to man (I'm sure there a synthetic something out there now though)

(non smokers) I challenge you to take a Nicorette gum (the strong one) chew it for 2 mins then tell me you are not fucked up from nicotine to the point of feeling sick

Pot has been found (in my understanding) to possibly be psychologically addictive but not physically addictive.

My "argument" was that I do not want to play with people impaired on anything. But I will not judge others use of whatever medications they need to live (semi) normally.

People who will drive while on any drugstore drug or "illegal" drug will do it anyway. They should not, altered minds create different reactions. Good luck with enforcement of someone driving while on meds though.

[Janus]

Originally Posted by Malice Army

Any safety violation is serious at anytime. And really what ARE you going to do?

All you have to do is play airsoft safely and responsibly and have fun and you don't have to find out.

[Kurgan]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

I am an age verifyer... if it suddenly becomes my job to report players behavior to ASC Central Command... and comply with directives to reovke AV status.. I'm done being a verifyer

Ill Say again... ASC has not interest in this issue and so NO Mandate to enforce anything.

There is no yeah but.. there is no argument

Kurgen started this public debate because he got the same snub from the AV private forum.
I'm not interested in getting involved in what seems to be a schoolyard tiff between the stoners and the Nerds in his end of the country.. sort it out.

ASC and the Age verifiers have already chimed in on this .. its a non starter.

You are correct in that I did start this in the AV section to gauge interest in the subject. You are incorrect about being snubbed. There were only a couple of Age verifiers such as yourself, who do not want to go along with my suggestion.
some responses by other age verifiers, (not posting names as it was a private discussion amongst AVs.

************************************************** *******
unquestionably they should be removed and boycotted from the community.

I agree with all comments. Zero tolerance for this sort of criminal activity when mixed with airsoft.

+1. No tolerance for this kind of behavior.

t should be common practice to play responsibly with guns, then get shitfaced on your drug/alcohol of choice if you choose to.
Promote clear headed shooting.

I don't agree with drugs and airsoft mixing.

I'd support revoking the AV of the people in question. Promoting drug use as part of airsoft is ridiculous.

there is no actual law relating to the permissible age for the sale and use of airsoft guns, and ASC has merrily created its own rules on that.

If they bring it up on the forum and it goes against any of our rules (including discussing any illegal activities) ASC staff will deal with it accordingly.

No one should be under the influence of anything while pointing a gun at me or anyone else.

That type of behaviour would've result in immediate expulsion in all the games I've been to.

Playing under the influence is not the norm.

if the community has a problem with it, then publicly call them out on it and take a stand as a community.

Out them publicly, and let ASC decide how it goes.

ASC would be wise to enforce a distinction between airsoft, alcohol and drugs on ASC.

I know a lot of people that smoke pot as an habbit. They do before and after the game. I don't like it, but it does not show on them that they are high. BUT, they are discreet and they absolutly don't promote it publicly. Same thing for alcool use.

Kurgan, it's all fine and dandy discussing this here, but really, you should start a thread out in the open forums and out these guys publicly.
The fact of the matter is, ASC is only as toothless as it's membership allows. If the community at large is behind you, then that is ASC.

I hate to say it, but ASC has become more about revenue now than the community. We used to have a strong community and ASC was the head of it. Not the case anymore it seems. That's why I don't post here very often anymore. I don't like what the place has become.

I'm feeling the same way.

ASC has no control over the laws of the country. We are not here to enforce them.

It was mentioned that we implemented an 18+ rule so why can we not enfore an anti smoking rule. Well for one there is no law other then in Ontario I believe against airsoft being 18+, this rule was one widely accepted by the community when it was first approached in the discussions here on the board.

If you can show and get the support of the majority of the community to enforce an anti drug rule resulting in a removal of age verification then its something that I'm sure will be looked at and implemented. But before you do, take this simple advice and think really hard about what your going to ban.

Do not forget there is over the counter legal drugs for treating colds and flus, that some players will be using to treat said items while they play, which can and do affect some people in the same way as the illegal drugs. If you are gong to try and force a rule, besure you cover all your angles and be sure of your reasonings why some "drugs" or "enhancement drinks" are allowed and not others. Because that will be the largest part of your headache from the debate/arguement that will ensure once you make your post in the general section to try and enforce/implement it.

Win that battle and you'll have my full support to push it through the rest of the way here on the boards. So in short and to quote yourself: Grow a Set Kurgan and go enforce the law your complaining about. Make the phone call to the local authorities and report the illegal behavoir. Create a thread in the Discussion section and approach this issue and see if you can win the majority of the votes to help create a new enforcement rule here on ASC (where people already complain we have to many rules). Once said "Set" is grown, like I said you'll have my full backing to get it enacted.
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Well, I grew my set, called the local authorities (got a couple close friends in the municipal force) and one cpl in the RCMP. Now I'm coming to the community to get this idea beyond discussion and into action.

Apart from a couple of people (who have coincidentally admitted to drinking at events) the majority of the respondents are against the use, and seem to be in favor of my idea of the AV revoking.

Mind you... it would be the AV's who recommend the action (more than one AV required), and the final decision made and executed by ASC staff. This would eliminate the "hearsay aspect". If ASC can't trust it's AVers, why are we doing the job in the first place.

talk amongst yourselves.... you have the topic.

[safx]

Originally Posted by Janus

All you have to do is play airsoft safely and responsibly and have fun and you don't have to find out.

Your internet warrior sig kinda
contradicts your position in this
debate...

[shiftsup]

Originally Posted by Shrike

Actually Nicotine is THE most addictive substance known to man (I'm sure there a synthetic something out there now though)

(non smokers) I challenge you to take a Nicorette gum (the strong one) chew it for 2 mins then tell me you are not fucked up from nicotine to the point of feeling sick

Pot has been found (in my understanding) to possibly be psychologically addictive but not physically addictive.

My "argument" was that I do not want to play with people impaired on anything. But I will not judge others use of whatever medications they need to live (semi) normally.

People who will drive while on any drugstore drug or "illegal" drug will do it anyway. They should not, altered minds create different reactions. Good luck with enforcement of someone driving while on meds though.

I might be impaired right now but did I understand this correctly?

You do not want to game with cigarette smokers?

Nicotine itself isn't that addictive. Nicotine combined with MAOI's found in tobacco make it terribly addictive. That's why nicotine sans tobacco is used for smoking cessation.

Sure Nicorette gum can make a non smoker ill. But so can brushing your teeth and then drinking a tall glass of orange juice (not advised).

Just because something is physically addictive it doesn't mean it will impair your judgement as far as driving or operating equipment.

Cig smokes are an addictive stimulant / relaxant. I cannot recall ever being impaired due to having a cigarette.

Just not sure where you were going with that comment.

This is an enjoyable thread. Brings back the memories of a thread on another board that confused the Special Olympics with the Para Olympics. That was Epic.

[jameskersten]

Airsoft and illegal drugs should never mix. Like Janus said, what someone does outside of airsoft is their own choice but if anyone on our team showed up to a game either high or drunk I can assure you, they won't be playing. But if someone was to get past us and play high or drunk and we find out, they won't be playing with us again anytime soon. Why would anyone need to play airsoft high or drunk to enjoy it?

[Shrike]

I smoke shiftsup.

[safx]

Kurgan,

Just a question between you and I—

If I came home from work around 5pm
had dinner and a couple of beers while
packing up my gear and guns for TAC
at 9pm, would you have a problem
playing with me?

If so, where do you draw the line?

I have to be alcohol free for 6+ before
a game? I can accept completely, no
drinking while playing, but there is a
big diff between having a beer or 2
before arriving from dinner/lunch and
being intoxicated. That would have to
be a judgement call on behalf of the host,
since our livers are not created equal.

[Janus]

Originally Posted by safx

Your internet warrior sig kinda
contradicts your position in this
debate...

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

this issue is not the acts of the people involved.. this issue is does an on line forum have any place punishing behavior that did not happen on the forum?

The answer has to be no.

As soon as it takes up that mandate it then has a duty of care to administer the rules universally and completely otherwise it opens itself to claims of discrimination.

in short.. if you are going to accept the mantle of responsibility .. you wear it fully or not at all.

It is impossibe for this entity to serve as a fair and universal arbiter of player behavior and so it must stay out of it entirely.

Ill quote myself..

because it seems no one else is thinking this through...

A body can only enforce standards and levy penalties if it has a mandate to do so. and the ability to do it fairly and universally.

ASC has none of these abilities... and I assure you I have no interest in being an "officer" of ASC and accepting the liability that implies.

Who will decide when , how and in what circumstances a breech worthy of censure has ocurred.. will we next establish tribunals and an appeals proceess?

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Kurgan

You are correct in that I did start this in the AV section to gauge interest in the subject.

Well, I grew my set, called the local authorities (got a couple close friends in the municipal force) and one cpl in the RCMP.

talk amongst yourselves.... you have the topic.

And there was no consensus .. and no mandate .. it fizzled as an issue

Looks like you did what you should have done in the first place.

We have been talking... and again the issue fizzled because there is no will to implement such a thing