systema mp5

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Griffin

So for the MP5 are they making a completely new type of cylinder type system?.

Not completely new. They're using the same cylinder head, spring guide and spring. All else is different, and only M90 for now.

[LUTNIT]

Originally Posted by Griffin

So for the MP5 are they making a completely new type of cylinder type system?. Take from Redwolf there description leads you to believe it would be the same as the current PTW's.

"The MP5-A4 will come standard with the M90 Spring Cylinder Unit"

Um...not at all. That description says that their MP5's come with M90 cylinders, not that they come with armalite PTW M90 cylinders. It even says in the article at redwolf that it will be a different cylinder with only the piston head, spring guide, and spring the same.

My second PTW is still going to be an M16A3, end of story.

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

I can change the EL-001 board without removing the gearbox in about 5 minutes. I can replace the EL-003 board in the M4 in about 5 minutes, all without removing the gearbox.

You're such an odd PTW zealot man. I don't think anyone's implied the MP5 was going to be the best PTW ever. Many are expressing their enthusiasm for an interesting model which has the potential of being well engineered.

It think it's rather odd that you feel that easily changing out expensive electronic components a big plus. I do find it's nice to be able to get at the electronics so easily, but I am unnerved by the fact that over a quarter of all of the PTWs my shop has had direct contact with have had significant electrical issues. We take sufficient ESD grounding measures (grounding wrist strap and mat) yet we regularly get repair jobs which require replacement of EL-002 and EL-003 modules. It's great that they're not hard to get at, it sucks ass that they die so frequently. I hope this is not the case with the MP5. I'm a little wary as SystemA ships their EL-002 and EL-003 modules in polyethylene bags instead of static dissapating polyester bags. Bolting the EL-003 switch module to a hunk of aluminum might be a great improvement. Only two FETs on the MP5 module bolted to a solid heatsink. It's possible that one FET is wired for forward and the other for brake. That means no matching issues with regard to "on" time which could be killing Armalite EL-003 modules. If SystemA has sourced high current capacity FETs and solidly bolted them to a heat sink, this could be a great improvement.

But they don't seem to be using helical gears, so good luck with an M150.

You saw one gear set and you're assuming that they will release no others. Maybe the pics were of the M90 hobbyiest build? Spur gears are easier to cut than helical. Japan has strict FPS regulations so it makes sense to have a domestic spur gear and low power spring build and a helical gearbox with higher power build.

And this geared selector arrangement is better that a simple rack gear? There are more PTWs in Alberta by far than all of Ontario, and I've never heard of a selector problem in an M4. I'll bet they haven't heard of it Europe or Asia or the U.S. either. If they have, it's not posted on PTW-users forum. Give your head a shake man!!!

I did give my head a shake when I saw an EL-001 board with switches which could not make reliable contact when the selector slider was moved back and forth. The problem is an intermittent one which made diagnosis difficult. The problem was not one due to a bad SCK build. This problem was found in a SystemA built MAX PTW.

Maybe you haven't heard of this problem because we managed to diagnose it without getting onto the PTW users forum. Not every significant piece of PTW related work is brought to the eyes of the PTW users forum. While it is a good public reference, there's lots of stuff that goes on beyond the sight of Sauron.

This is MP5 is a huge disappointment. They have obviously had to rush this thing to market, made some really poor design choices, deviated grossly from their tried and true PTW format, and try to package and market it as "the best PTW ever". Anyone who even remotely believes that has not owned or even seen the AR series.

You're crapping down the throat of a design which is not fully documented, with no user feedback, and one you've been very far from physically touching. It's not very wise to take such a strong stance on something you don't know much about. There are a lot of features which can look hawt or look terrible which can perform below or beyond expectations. I've burned out enough gears and bushings in consumer product lifecycle testing to find out that nature is a perverse bitch. I've built gearboxes with plastic bushings which outlasted similar boxes with sintered bronze bushings. I've seen gear shafts which didn't meet hardness or finish specs lose wear particles to plastic bushings which progressively ground the shafts down leaving substantially unworn bushing surfaces and ground down steel shafts. Photos are nice and all, but the best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry. While there can be glaring errors which indicate probable failure, there are a lot more subtleties which can also cause failure.

I must be crazy because I am a current owner of a PTW Crapalite and I believe that the MP5 PTW is an opportunity for SystemA to address some design deficiencies in their Armalite build. It's a great feeling piece of kit, but I am frustrated by it's inelegant design and high cost. It feels very solid, but it's easily outshot by my well adjusted (and much cheaper) TM P90. I like it as a collection of finely machined parts, but it reminds me of an IPSC race gun which has plenty of careful machining but lacks robustness. Precise fits abound, but at the cost of buckets of $$$. And for all that, it's not combat worthy.

Crummy hopup and mags which drop their followers or fail to feed. Out of nearly 20 PTWs that have passed thru my shop (maybe there are more in Ontario than you thought), over half required mag catch adjustment (grind top surface) to assure consistent engagement and bb feeding. SystemA pursues a nice tight engagement which feels good, but can crank the mag up a the rear. This can affect the registration of the front of the mag (where the important bits are) and cause misfeeding or notfeeding.

I had really hoped they would bring an actual PTW to market. But, it seems they like the $$$ even more than I thought, and would like to target the masses with a bastardized Ver 2 mechbox and call it a "training weapon".

I hate to say this and destroy your world. SystemA copied the sector gear and piston design from their AEG line of products. Take a PTW ring sector gear and lay it on top of one of their standard AEG sector gears. You'll find that it as the same tooth profile and pitch circle diameter (circle where teeth mesh). The sector ring is also a complicated shape so it has to be made in powder metal instead of machined heat treatable bar stock as they are with standard AEG gears. Harder tougher properties can be achieved with gears machined from bar stock if the maker decides to go through the trouble.

Their cylinder set has the same inner and outer diameters as their standard AEG cylinders. Their piston has similar dimensions except for it's major diameter to engage a the rails built into the cylinder tube. There are some functional similarities between the Armalite PTW build and the classic AEG build. Some of the areas where SystemA significantly diverged are areas that are terribly wrong like the hop up and breech build. Their doublestack mags bind and fail to feed, and their tappet plate workaround is an inelegant kludge fix which is unfortunately probably ported to the MP5 build.

Both the MP5 and Armalite have features copied (oh noes!) from the V2 mechbox. I don't see how the MP5 gearbox is any more of a bastard V2 box than an Armalite box. Both have separate cylinder assemblies (no more busted V2 front window) and both probably feature a sector gear with similar pitch circle diameters which would probably result in both having very similar cylinder modules.

Count the teeth on the MP5 sector gear. 15 teeth like on the Armalite. Probably same piston and piston stroke.

[mcguyver]

There are about 40 PTWs in Alberta, and that's the ones I know about. Probably more than that. And I've never heard, seen or know of anyone (other than you) who needed to adjust mag catches, or have these mystical crappy hop-ups.

The electronics are just as likely to fail in the MP5 as in the ARs. It's a fact of life. Accept it. No get to the easy changing of it in the MP5. Wait, let's tear down the whole gun!! Bullshit, pure and simple.

The current PTW has a good track record of running the M150, reliably. No other gun does it. I use the M150, many others do all over the world. This set-up as shown will not.

If Systema is expecting raves from showing pics of average-looking parts in a top-shelf (for price anyways) gun, good luck with that. Current PTW-owners will not be and aren't impressed by this gun. If you can honestly say you are impressed by this gun, I call BS on you. I know you're smarter than that!!!

You expect a certain level of engineering and thought, and you certainly expect them to bring their game up to the next level, and they've fallen very short indeed.

And, I'm not odd, I'm a realist.

http://forums2.blacksierra.net/viewtopic.php?t=209

Read the text.

[LUTNIT]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

There are about 40 PTWs in Alberta, and that's the ones I know about. Probably more than that.

Madmax has seen 20 in his shop. I personally know of 8-10 PTW's in Ontario and of those I only know one that has sent theirs to get fixed. Madmax doesn't see the average but the extreme cases so if hes seen 20 my guess would be there are at least 60-80 in Ontario. A&A brought in dozens, thepirate does his group orders that mine is from, and I know of at least one other source of PTW's bringing them in. The PTW bug may have started out west but you can't match Ontario for population both of general people and airsofters.

[Ronan]

I wonder how many people have the new 2008 one's... i'm hopping to be the first in Quebec/Canada but i doubt it lol

[Chrios]

Ontario has the most fields and about ten times the population of Alberta...hyperbole much?

[MadMax]

Well, the only public importer left is in Calgary. I'd say Calgary probably would have the highest per capita PTW population at the very least. It doesn't really matter anyways. Manchovie gorilla repair will only get problem AEGs coming thru. Lutnit does have a valid point. Still I have seen poor failure rates in NIB electronics groups and non SCK PTWs sold NIB.

[attack-beaver]

red wolf is taking pre-orders on their MP5-A4.

see it right here

[Ronan]

Can't wait for mine

Also normal cylinders work in those... no buying special cylinders

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Ronan

Also normal cylinders work in those... no buying special cylinders

No. You'll need to buy MP5 PTW-specific cylinders as well as AR cylinders for your M4.

[manchovie]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

There are about 40 PTWs in Alberta, and that's the ones I know about. Probably more than that. And I've never heard, seen or know of anyone (other than you) who needed to adjust mag catches, or have these mystical crappy hop-ups.

The electronics are just as likely to fail in the MP5 as in the ARs. It's a fact of life. Accept it. No get to the easy changing of it in the MP5. Wait, let's tear down the whole gun!! Bullshit, pure and simple.

The current PTW has a good track record of running the M150, reliably. No other gun does it. I use the M150, many others do all over the world. This set-up as shown will not.

If Systema is expecting raves from showing pics of average-looking parts in a top-shelf (for price anyways) gun, good luck with that. Current PTW-owners will not be and aren't impressed by this gun. If you can honestly say you are impressed by this gun, I call BS on you. I know you're smarter than that!!!

You expect a certain level of engineering and thought, and you certainly expect them to bring their game up to the next level, and they've fallen very short indeed.

And, I'm not odd, I'm a realist.

http://forums2.blacksierra.net/viewtopic.php?t=209

Read the text.

i'm going to go ahead and believe kumi on this one what's so big about having planetary gears when they don't feel confident enough with the max build to sell it with m170 springs, but they do it with every v2 magnum gearbox set? who says you need helical gears for running m150? they specifically said that there'll be a max mp5 later, so this version is obviously not designed to handle m150 cylinders just like the gen3 m4's. does that make it shit? you're running on complete speculation, the systema m4 is a VERY wasteful build, they probably figured out where they're wasting money and are making a less gimicky gun (awwww sorry, did you like all those pretty little gears?) with the same performance, perhaps even with some interesting features like piston lock-back so you can enjoy real steel rof with instant trigger response. i've still got my fingers crossed for REAL HOPUP though. ptw hopup is ok, but nowhere near as good as tm; i don't care how much you spent on your guns, the sooner you come to terms with real facts, the sooner you'll stop polluting these boards with your voodoo blahblah.
i'm all for the new placement of the electronic boards. the fet board is nice and stashed away from sliding batteries and yanking cords and is properly heatsinked (noticed how in the 2008 m4 ptw's they put a heatsink around it, meaning that in all likelihood it IS AN ISSUE and is not god's perfect face in the form of an airsoft gun). i'm crossing my fingers that the optical gate/trigger switch board has also been changed because of the frequency of it failing. fast access to electronics that arent supposed to break IS NOT A FEATURE.
personally i see no solid reason for this gun not being fantastic (other than no sliding stock ). it's an mp5 (the tm based version is one of their oldest designs and has seen almost 0 revision by the companies that cloned it) that was designed from the ground up with knowledge gained from making the most advanced aeg to date. i'm pretty sure they know more about blinding errors than mcguyver here can speculate from images of a prototype. also, the cylinder gripes here make no sense. not to mention that it weighs 4kg and has working burst! two things we havent seen on an mp5 to date yet, plus they seem to be made as value guns so there hasnt been a REALLY nice one made yet. color me excited, i really like mp5s.

where does it even say that theyre only keeping the parts you named? looks like all you need to do might be simply extend the window in the cylinder which is as simple to them as punching in some numbers on their cnc machine. if this is the only change necessary then the cylinders will be backwards compatible with their m4 series.

now just one more time because it was so goddamn good:

Originally Posted by mcguyver

And, I'm not odd, I'm a realist.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by manchovie

i'm going to go ahead and believe kumi on this one what's so big about having planetary gears when they don't feel confident enough with the max build to sell it with m170 springs, but they do it with every v2 magnum gearbox set? who says you need helical gears for running m150? they specifically said that there'll be a max mp5 later, so this version is obviously not designed to handle m150 cylinders just like the gen3 m4's. does that make it shit? you're running on complete speculation, the systema m4 is a VERY wasteful build, they probably figured out where they're wasting money and are making a less gimicky gun (awwww sorry, did you like all those pretty little gears?)

So, how many teeth in any AEG contact each other between the sector gear and the spur gear, any gear type, flat, helical, whatever? 4, 6 maybe? Now how many in a planetary arrangement? Alot more than 4. Alot. And who says the M170 doesn't have a planetary gearbox? It's not released. No info or pics available? Your ignorance is mind-boggling.

Originally Posted by manchovie

perhaps even with some interesting features like piston lock-back so you can enjoy real steel rof with instant trigger response.

Now who's speculating?

Originally Posted by manchovie

i've still got my fingers crossed for REAL HOPUP though. ptw hopup is ok, but nowhere near as good as tm; i don't care how much you spent on your guns, the sooner you come to terms with real facts, the sooner you'll stop polluting these boards with your voodoo blahblah.

I have no problems with my hop-ups. None at all. I own more PTWs than you, have been using them for a hell of alot longer than you, in more versions than you have. But I know nothing about them? I have not seen or heard of anyone out west with all these "mystical" problems you have with hop-ups or mag catches. Are there better hop-ups out there than a PTW, for sure, there is better of any one thing in any gun that what can be found anywhere else, including a PTW. But you can't get it all in one gun at the same time. I know it, you know it, so be real here.

I seem to recall you PM-ing me when you had trouble with your PTW, and only 5 months ago, too? So, what, now I know nothing all of a sudden? And who says you're the PTW expert now? Because you've fixed a few of them? And why have you had to fix them? Poor assembly parctices maybe? Or looking to fix faults that really aren't there?

Originally Posted by manchovie

i'm all for the new placement of the electronic boards. the fet board is nice and stashed away from sliding batteries and yanking cords and is properly heatsinked (noticed how in the 2008 m4 ptw's they put a heatsink around it, meaning that in all likelihood it IS AN ISSUE and is not god's perfect face in the form of an airsoft gun). i'm crossing my fingers that the optical gate/trigger switch board has also been changed because of the frequency of it failing. fast access to electronics that arent supposed to break IS NOT A FEATURE.

So, with these failings you supposedly have seen in all these electronics, it's better that they are buried the gun than being accessable? So it's better, or worse for changing? Make up your damn mind. What makes you think they'll be more reliable, simply location. Grease contamination from the gear train is not an issue, eh?

Originally Posted by manchovie

personally i see no solid reason for this gun not being fantastic (other than no sliding stock ). it's an mp5 (the tm based version is one of their oldest designs and has seen almost 0 revision by the companies that cloned it) that was designed from the ground up with knowledge gained from making the most advanced aeg to date. i'm pretty sure they know more about blinding errors than mcguyver here can speculate from images of a prototype. also, the cylinder gripes here make no sense. not to mention that it weighs 4kg and has working burst! two things we havent seen on an mp5 to date yet, plus they seem to be made as value guns so there hasnt been a REALLY nice one made yet. color me excited, i really like mp5s.

Surely to God Systema knows more about the PTW than me. But they have made mistakes in the past on PTW, that's for certain. It took them 3 years and 3 revisions to get it right. And how many of those Gen 1 owners who bought them when they were new were impressed by the initial offering? I'll tell you, not very many. So skepticism is warranted here, especially on a radical departure from their tried and tested format, whether you agree with it or not.

Originally Posted by manchovie

where does it even say that theyre only keeping the parts you named? looks like all you need to do might be simply extend the window in the cylinder which is as simple to them as punching in some numbers on their cnc machine. if this is the only change necessary then the cylinders will be backwards compatible with their m4 series.

They showed the pics, they open themselves up for whatever comments to them. And to make it worse, now there are choices for gears? So which gears go where and when? Now do we get into modding these for varying ROF or load? Should this even be necessary when you are spending $2K on a gun? The AR is ready out-of-the-box for M90-M150, no internal changes, just a battery and cylinder. My God, that's awful to be built like that!!

You have few rational arguments here. You are irrationally displaying enthusiasm, almost like a retailer tries to pump up a product, whether it's potentially flawed or not. If the M4 PTW (a far superior design) is so flawed with 4 years and 4 revisions to date, tested and used by thousand of people all over the world, why would this "hybrid" be better? Your logic is ridiculous.

And if you think that I'm the only one who thinks this way, you're mistaken.

[Manchilada]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

If the M4 PTW (a far superior design) is so flawed...

Is it a far superior design? How the fuck does the all mighty mcguyver know?
Planetary, helical, spur gears all have their andvantages and disadvantages. Without being part of the design for this product I don't think anyone on these boards is in the position to accept or reject this design as being "superior". I understand you own a pile of PTW M4's, but these stupid ass claims of their "superior design" based on something you havn't seen or used makes me want to block your ignorant posts from my fragile eyes and wait for Carl to let me know how the real deal looks.

I'm hopeful the MP5 turns out to be a beauty, but until then I'm considering un-retiring my modded TM M16a2 in light of the fact that it far outranges and outperformes my PTW M4 What a fucking terrible thing to say!@!!!!@!@@

[LUTNIT]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

And who says the M170 doesn't have a planetary gearbox? It's not released. No info or pics available? Your ignorance is mind-boggling.

That is what manchovie is referring to and there are no planetary gears in that mechbox.