GBBRs and Milsims....

[jomor]

I have just bought my first GBB, the VFC 416. I bought it used on the ASC. I have only plinked with it in the basement since its still freaking winter! So I can see where using it in a milsim would be fun, you would need a crap load of mags, thankfully I do.
How do you know what O-rings fit different parts? Is there a list of O-rings for each manufacturers part of do you just measure what the size is and use anything that size?
For realism I'm not sure that the kick is all that big a deal, not much of a kick really. They are lowder for sure and that makes it more fun for me and not the mechanical zip sound.

[Ricochet]

Well, to be fair I run the following almost exclusively.

AR = Systema PTW (electric)
Pistol = Tokyo Marui GBB (gas)
SR= Tokyo Marui VSR (spring)

The bottom two are not really big winners in the realism department, sort of, but reliability and performance are number 1 for me for sure. I actually had an Ares Accuracy International L96 AWS gas rifle, that was extraordinarily realistic. However when all was said and done, and upgraded, it will not perform as well as the Marui, so the Marui won. Tokyo Marui PX4 pistol is actually pretty goddamn realistic, except the polymer slide. But to some that's a make or break. Performance is outstanding, but the details are actually very realistic, including weight, function safety, rotating barrel, etc. I won't even bother talking about Systema.

I do want to get into GBBRs, but for games, it need as good or better. Compared to PTWs, everything is less, or at best the same, except it has a kick to it.

I have my eye on this new Tippman M4, and I've always wanted an RA-Tech M14 EBR, Open Bolt
Level III.


Also I'll note that maximized range and accuracy adds to the realism for me over kick.

[jomor]

I was a huge Paintball "milsimmer" in the early days of Paintball. The air systems seemed more reliable and less complicated than the newer Airsoft GBB. I bought the A5 when it first came out and it stayed with me until I found Airsoft just a few years ago. I'm also curious about the new Tippman and I hope that they do well with it.

[ThunderCactus]

They seem to have gone the right direction with, I presume airsoft spec, upper receiver threading and standardized barrel and hop rubber

[Ricochet]

AEG cut barrel, hop-up unknown (proprietary), and I believe they said externals are milspec.

[Kos-Mos]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Of course. The purpose of my comment was that I'd pick overall performance over the little bit if realism a GBBR offers over non blowback airsoft platforms.
I pick gear, equipment, and tactics for competition, not for realism. Realism is just a bonus of playing a combat based game. To me, the GBBR kick is "neat", but not a deciding factor. That being said, if there were two rifles of exact performance, I'd take the one with the kick over not. But as long as one has further accuracy, and is more versatile and dependable in different weather conditions, and the fact I need only a battery instead of tons if gas for the same job, then that is more important by far. To me at least, I'm not out there to act or reinact.

I feel like you never had any somewhat good GBBR.

I am starting my second season with GBBRs. Would not go back to AEGs for anything.
Tightbore + good nozzle + good valve, I hit the same and most of the time better than fully-tuned AEGs.

To give you a ball park, we play at a field called Rawdon. It's sand pits, and huge engagement distance. 99% of AEGs shooting 400 do not make it across the large fields. I have been able to stand at the limit of BB drops (behind cover just in case), and take out a VIP, through a bush, in 2 shots. It was not a lucky shot, straight line, I managed to punch through a leaf.

The thing that most people seem to forget is that just like any AEG, in stock form GBBRs are only average. A stock TM will run for ever, but will lack the range outside to be effective. Would you run a 280FPS gun outside? Even if it's a Systema?

And to that point, for the price of one stock PTW, I can build 2 GBBRs that will be as accurate, if not more. For the price of an upgrades PTW, because you know the motor is crap, the hop-up needs fixing and the control board keep frying if you don't coat it in epoxy, I can build an extra GBBR and buy enough mags to have 3 full loadouts.

If for some reason your gun stops working on the field, you can literally "field strip" it and fix it. "known" parts to break are nozzle and, well that's about it.
A second bolt is really cheap and can be swapped in under 30 seconds blind folded.

There is a HUGE advantage that AEGs can't get, and most people don't realize. The gas flows until the BB leaves the barrel. Heavier BBs accelerate slower than light ones. That means that if you chrony your GBBR on .20 in the morning, at 380FPS, and use .30 BBs, you will shoot roughly 355 FPS, but have almost twice the energy. You will in fact have a LOT more penetration power and don't lose any appreciable range.

Also, I am really questioning your definition of MILSIM. You said you brought 3000-5000 rounds on you. Ever seen ANY soldier bring more than 500rnds? I mean theses are not light by any mean. That weight problem is "resolved" by a supply chain and effective squad rotation. You wiped 20-30 guys and there is an other wave? Good thing. When you run out of ammo and are forced to retreat and make an opening for reinforcement to break the line, you are finally enjoying the difference between a skirmish and an operation.

Winning is really boring after the novelty wore off. Keeping track of your kill/death is fun, except when you also have to keep track of how many round you shot/are left and how many mags you still have. And you buddies'. And how to get the hell out when shit hits the fan and you are all on last mag.

Getting out of a situation by the skin of your teeth and holding an objective with 3 guys and 900rnds total gets the blood pumping.

I don't remember most of my kills. I do remember that time I took out 6 guys with a grenade, shot the last one and screwed the bomb defusing team. I also remember that one mercy that turned into an hostage situation and where the guy lost an ear (role playing obviously). I remember crawling in mud for 100 meters because me and my buddy where on second to last mag and there was 15+ Charlies right in the way. And dragging him into a ditch to medic him when he got shot. I also remember that 2-shot take out of the VIP. We didn't even win this game, but that VIP didn't understand how or who shot him.

[ThunderCactus]

Originally Posted by Kos-Mos

There is a HUGE advantage that AEGs can't get, and most people don't realize. The gas flows until the BB leaves the barrel. Heavier BBs accelerate slower than light ones. That means that if you chrony your GBBR on .20 in the morning, at 380FPS, and use .30 BBs, you will shoot roughly 355 FPS, but have almost twice the energy. You will in fact have a LOT more penetration power and don't lose any appreciable range.

And that's why out here and in Mb, GBBR's and now every other gun as well is chrono'd with the weight they'll be using.
Otherwise the GBBR's are just cheating the chrono every time lol

Anyway a gun's range and accuracy is the sum of it's parts.
One place in particular that GBBRs and PTW's have SIGNIFICANT advantages over AEG's is something nobody thinks about, the hop chamber.
The hop chamber on most AEG's is flimsy at best, some are plastic, most are slightly loose in the outer barrel, the barrels are held in by weak plastic clips that have some wobble to them and secured in the hop chamber by rubber. And the adjusters are usually a long flimsy arm that suffers from bounce and uneven pressure and in the case of M4's have over-sensitive dial adjustments.

The VSR system is a bit more secure, but the hop chambers on the GBBRs tend to be significantly more rigid, and have rotary dial adjusters that are more precise and more rigid. Plus the added continuous back pressure of gas helps center the BB more quickly than an AEG would.

The PTW's barrel is precision pinned to it's hop chamber for zero movement in any direction. The hop adjuster, when modded correctly, is so rigid it works like a fixed hop giving extremely repeatable results in backspin. The adjuster is very precise. And the hop chamber is pushed forward quite forcefully by the spring tensioned ball on the back of the cylinder, into a set of half moon grooves ensuring that it stays centered and rigid. Nothing has any play in the compression parts and barrel group.

With the AEG, you've got a few thousandths of wobble in the mounting of the hop chamber, a few thousandths between the barrel and hop rubber, the clip can wobble back and forth .01", the hop rubber might not seal perfectly against the air nozzle. There's just so much more play and inconsistency in an AEG than anyone even realizes.
The polarstar is an awesome drop in mechbox, but it's only major failing in performance is it's dependence on an AEG hop chamber and barrel lol

The only failing to GBBR's is the gas, really. How do you get around not having to carry extra canisters on you?
Otherwise, they offer the very best realize, and their range and accuracy is just downright impressive.

[Heerven]

Originally Posted by Kos-Mos

IThat means that if you chrony your GBBR on .20 in the morning, at 380FPS, and use .30 BBs, you will shoot roughly 355 FPS, but have almost twice the energy. You will in fact have a LOT more penetration power and don't lose any appreciable range.

.

355FPS, are you sure Kosmos? From 0.20 to 0.25 I loose already 40fps
I never tried 0.30.
I had an app on my phone with a chart according to BB weight, actually who was very close to my numbers for 0.25.
If I remember right, when I used to use 0.28, I was closer to 220-230FPS to not get over the limit FPS allowed with 0.20

[Kos-Mos]

Originally Posted by Heerven

355FPS, are you sure Kosmos? From 0.20 to 0.25 I loose already 40fps
I never tried 0.30.
I had an app on my phone with a chart according to BB weight, actually who was very close to my numbers for 0.25.
If I remember right, when I used to use 0.28, I was closer to 220-230FPS to not get over the limit FPS allowed with 0.20

That's for AEGs, that push out a constant amount of air, at a given acceleration rate (a spring is linear, well mostly except the "non-linear" part).
Gaz expansion is not, it takes as much space as it can, regardless of the volume. And there is gaz added as long the the BB puts back pressure on the valve. It's also instantly pushing full pressure, unlike an AEG spring that has to accelerate the piston, then seal the o-ring and then start to build-up pressure.

In summer, I set my gun at 380fps on .20.
I run .28 and I usually am still over 350fps with that.

What should happen is set the rule for energy instead.
You chrony the gun with the weight you will use, and calculate the total energy.

Really useful script here for that purpose:

http://www.gamepod.com/fps_calculator.php

[Black Patch]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Of course. The purpose of my comment was that I'd pick overall performance over the little bit if realism a GBBR offers over non blowback airsoft platforms.
I pick gear, equipment, and tactics for competition, not for realism. Realism is just a bonus of playing a combat based game. To me, the GBBR kick is "neat", but not a deciding factor. That being said, if there were two rifles of exact performance, I'd take the one with the kick over not. But as long as one has further accuracy, and is more versatile and dependable in different weather conditions, and the fact I need only a battery instead of tons if gas for the same job, then that is more important by far. To me at least, I'm not out there to act or reinact.

Ricochet

As soon as you introduce a recoil impulse to the equation accuracy suffers.

Your view is, once again well taken. Great. Shoot Systema's and AEGs because that's all a Systema is... A glorified battery operated rifle.

A GBBR is just a different way of conducting Airsoft. You HAVE to think about the bigger picture.

I take your point well.. We are not soldiers and we are not dying when rounds hit... so people can use what they want. Great. Do it. Be happy and have fun.

I couldn't give a fuck really. It's about personal preference that is all.
I like playing the game against guys who run 20 rounds a second monsters. When I shoot them with my GBBR it makes it that much more satisfying.

[Ricochet]

I load my magazines to about 60 rounds only, and carry 8 total. When you have sixty players hitting a facility, and then moving up their mobile respawn, and constantly dropping guys off by truck, it's intense. It takes hours to chew them off your back, and drive them away. Milsims like that, had tons of action, and your heart doesn't stop pumping, you're on high alert the whole time. You don't know if your going to be hit by a small strike team or the entire enemy force. Sneaking through their main base of operations, which is a giant steam plant, with hundreds of windows, huge cement basement, and floors and floors of catwalks and ladders. Tens of enemy's matching around, and then digging them out of there before they even know what hit them. No acting, no mercy, grenades, guns, and good memories. 24 hours, with less than an hour sleep, and endless extreme fun. We had guys designated to reload magazines, that would take everyone's mags and run them back to the re-load area , because we were going throug rounds so fast. There was always someone to reinforce the guy or guys you just killed. We'd take turns, because you'd go through mag after mag exchanging with the enemy. Both sides expelling ammo. I'd kill the same guy several times, and he'd be back for more before either team would give ground. I'd get killed two, three, four or more times, and return to the same fight over the same building. Once we won, we'd have to regroup, and go hit them before they could. Try an catch them unaware, and take more land, buildings, or steal their objectives.

I like GBBRs, I do. However, couldn't have pulled off a game like that with one. You can't carry enough gas on you for that kind of fire fight. Your vehicles are a mile away, and your ruck sack full of ammo, food, water, and ranger blankets is with the other squad. You had to carry all your ammo, two meals, and three liters of water at least. Not to mention tools, radio, a warm later, everything you'll need for at least 12 hours plus, because you may only get one or two refill opportunities. You need to be able to sling a thousands of rounds without seeing your ruck, your vehicle, or your friends.

As far as accuracy and distance, I have yet to see a GBBR keep up to a Systema, then again, nothing really does. There are guns that shoot as far, or as quickly, but you just can't get the all around performance of one. I've run a Systema at 300 FPS (black cylinder), or blue, gold, red, etc. Their hop-ups are just the best in my opinion, and we can get more than 300 feet out of our rounds easily, and consistantly. Two batteries will put out more rounds than you can carry gas on you, and they are consistently the same, and not affected by temperature. Systemas electronics do not constantly fry, that's a myth. I know a guy who submerged his in water, and they lived. I've played in a torrential downpour without an issue. You need to take care of them, and dry them off, but they're more than robust enough. Hop-up doesn't need modding by any means. When our guys picked up their final evos, we were sighting in at 250 plus feet with irons out if the box. The mod gives you a more aggresive bucking, and more aggressive spin, going from best to better. Another myth, is that the motor is crap, it isn't. Systema's motor is outstanding, but at manufacture they wind the armature too tight, and it eventually cracks and arcs out. Once you get them hand wound, they are solid. It's unfortunate, but it's the one thing you accept as a Systema owner. My first motor went a year and a half before dying, and then after winding went almost four. To be fair, I biffed it good and smashed my gun on the ground, and then it quit, so who knows. My second went exactly one season before it died, and after winding is still going. I've been a Systema owner for 8 plus years. Although I've modified my M4 into an M16, I have the original gear-box, second hop-up, and second set of boards.

Systema, to hell and back.

When Jonas's was stripped down by MacGuyvwr after years and years of abuse, he found sand, sticks, and other crap in the gearbox, and it was still going. After cleaning, it's still going today. Although Mac doesn't let him get it that bad anymore I'm sure. I've seen a bunch of solid GBBRs, and I like where they are going, but they have to get there. My buddies RA-Tech open bolt was great, but it didn't have the distance our PTWs were putting out, though it was significantly better than most AEGs I've ever seen. Minus the bolt jamming, nozzle issues, and inconsistencies.

GBBRs are like the electric car. It's a great idea, but until it travels as far on one tank, fuels up as quickly, hauls as much weight, and can replace all of our cars, trucks, semis, trains, yachts, and planes, it just isn't doing it yet. I'd love a solid GBBR, but I want to be able to expel thousands of rounds with gas, like I can with 2-3 batteries on my person. I want Minimilistic effect from temperature swing, and consistant range all day and night, etc, etc, etc.

What do GBBRs have? Kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick,... thank god for that. It's cool and everything, but that's all, by comparison they are just neat. I have high hopes for the next generation of GBBRs, but they have a ways to go till they keep up with other platforms.

I'm not slamming people that use them, or them in general. Use what you like.

[ThunderCactus]

GBBRs with longer barrels especially, like M16s, tend to have significantly more drastic joule creep with heavier rounds as well

[Danke]

I salute you magnificent bastards in this thread who somehow against all the odds field a gas rifle and live to tell the tale.

[Ricochet]

Why is it when I re-read my threads, they always sound angry?

[ThunderCactus]

I used to have a WE PDW, suited scrims just fine for me, but it didn't suite me for longer ops.
Two big things that came up; leaking mags, and the darn thing didn't work in cold or hot weather. The hot weather issue was a design flaw specific to the PDW though