ESS Goggles "Warning" ... What the hell?

[panda86]

Originally Posted by NessMcCool

So confusing... are those damn goggles safe or not..?

It all comes down to where you play airsoft.

Tactical goggles are safe in terms of "will it protect your eyes if you're playing on a non sanctioned field".

Are tactical goggles legally approved for airsoft or paintball?: no. Only approved paintball goggles are on paintball fields. The "rules" are up to the field owner. If they don't care, they will tell you can wear whatever they want.

If they are running a paintball field that's used for airsoft, it's likely they will ask you to use paintball approved goggles. But again, that's at their discretion / insurance / liability, etc. Most just want to protect their ass legally.

[ShelledPants]

In my experience and from reading the boards, it's hit or miss whether you are allowed to wear these to a game.

Most paintball fields will not allow them because they are often bound by strict insurance policies to only allow paintball approved goggles. Other games, such as airsoft mil-sims on private fields, have no insurance policies at all, so you are solely responsible for your own gear: They only require you to wear ANSI approved goggles.

I have heard nothing but good things about ESS goggles (except for fogging, I've experienced that too), and I've personally been shot in the lens multiple times, there is no visible wear.

[Gigaknight]

Originally Posted by ShelledPants

...I've personally been shot in the lens multiple times, there is no visible wear.

Ess offers a solution to scratching; I wonder if it works: Lens covers

[ShelledPants]

Originally Posted by Gigaknight

Ess offers a solution to scratching; I wonder if it works: Lens covers

At 7$ for six, I'd rather just buy replacement lenses, notably the $25 thermal lens. Not a bad deal.Thermal Lens

[Gigaknight]

Haha, thanks; I just remembered that I need to put an order for thermal lenses.
By the way, if anyone wants brand new Profile goggles, I bought mine on ebay for about $70 with shipping.

Ebay

[ShelledPants]

Originally Posted by Gigaknight

Haha, thanks; I just remembered that I need to put an order for thermal lenses.
By the way, if anyone wants brand new Profile goggles, I bought mine on ebay for about $70 with shipping.

Ebay

I found mine in an Army Surplus store, locally, for $40.

I should have bought 2. Stupid me. I'm going back there to see if there are more on the 29th.

[Metalsynth]

Been using em for 3 years now with no problems with me or others that I know using em.

The only thing that keeps coming back is problems linked to the fan, wether it's the wire that gets ripped out or the battery pack shorting out on the first versions or just the fan dying.

Other than that, I've used em in intense CQB situations or outside and not one BB ever got in.

The fog problem even with the fan comes back one in a while though in some situations like direct sunlight in heavy humidity.

[ShelledPants]

Originally Posted by Metalsynth

Been using em for 3 years now with no problems with me or others that I know using em.

The only thing that keeps coming back is problems linked to the fan, wether it's the wire that gets ripped out or the battery pack shorting out on the first versions or just the fan dying.

Other than that, I've used em in intense CQB situations or outside and not one BB ever got in.

The fog problem even with the fan comes back one in a while though in some situations like direct sunlight in heavy humidity.

Have you tried their thermal lens, or s your fogging with the stock lens.

+1 to fogging on the stock lens in humid, no wind areas.

The moment the wind picks up, the fogging goes away.

[Metalsynth]

Originally Posted by ShelledPants

Have you tried their thermal lens, or s your fogging with the stock lens.

Still going stock but I'll have to give it a shot because my lenses are getting marked with age hehe

[Drake]

The problem for ESS, in the US, is the threat of litigation if one of those dumb Youtube kids uses them, gets shot in the eye, and the soccer-parents get upset.

I use ESS Profile NVGs and ESS ICE 2.4s, both are ANSI Z87.1 rated and the ICEs are MIL-V-43511C rated (MIL 22LR impact resistance); this meets or exceeds whatever force even a highly upgraded sniper rifle is going to deliver point blank.

Not all paintball goggles are ANSI rated; they use their own rating system -- ASTM F 1776-01 -- which is specific to paintball. It can stop a fairly high amount of energy (paintballs being many times heavier than a BB) but I'm not sure that the impact would be the same since BBs are small and hard and paintballs have much more surface area, deform easier and are comparatively soft and design to break on impact.

Personally I've always felt safer using the military goggles/glasses, specially since I've seen a lot of pball goggles with "do not use with >300 FPS" warnings on paintball goggles (I'd love to shoot a pair of old paintball glasses with a .22LR someday; personally I suspect it would fail, but I'm curious.)

[Yankee]

Well, I feel safe with the lense itself, it's more the foamy border that keeps freaking me since I've read some bb could go pass there...

[MadMax]

The ANSI rating is an insufficient specification for paintball eye protection. The ANSI rating only covers the ballistic properties of the lens of tactical goggles. It is likely that an ASTM rated goggle would also pass the ANSI ballistic test.

The big difference between the ASTM F1776-01 specification and the ANSI (can't rem the number) spec is that the ASTM spec also includes retention (strap), forced particle (paint shell fragments driven by liquid) exclusion, and incoming angle tests.

Most ANSI specs only deal with line of sight coverage and lens impact ballistic performance which doesn't necessarily make a safe goggle for paintball. Did you know that most pball goggles must be worn with the face mask to retain their ASTM rating? Reliable fitment around the bridge of the nose is a difficult problem with goggles. Some players may have a nose shape which can open a gap around the bridge of the nose and allow a pball to slip in around the nose and into the orbital region. For this reason, pball masks are required to have their facemasks mounted to provide line of sight coverage into these potential gaps.

ASTM specifications also have stringent knockoff requirements. IRC ASTM compliant goggles must be able to stay firmly seated if they are hit on the rear side edge with 10 aimed strikes with pballs from a standardized marker. Basically a dummy head is set up and a marker blasts balls at playing velocities at point blank hitting the side of goggles under test from behind. Crazy tangential impact intended to test the anti shift nature of the headstrap. Similar tests are done for top down and bottom up angles.

The ASTM requirements are significantly more stringent because of the nature of the threat at hand. With combat firearms, goggles provide negligible protection against primary threats like incoming fire (who fires birdshot in a gunfight in Iraq?). 7.62/5.56 proof goggles are nearly impossible to wear and stay mobile. It's hard enough to make opaque crap to stop those projectiles let alone something that you can see through. ANSI goggles are supposed to stop dust, close shot spray, and shell casings. If you have a lot of incoming lead particles from close wall hits, you can't really rely on any reasonable combat goggle. In combat getting some wall spall in the face is bad, but it's not the worst that could happen. You could get shot in side where you haven't got a super heavy side plate, or an RPG could knock on the bathroom door when you're taking a crap. You basically have to protect everything so goggles aren't hugely focused upon.

Being fired upon is a constant occurance in pball. Then you also got dingbats not doing up their straps just right or mashing them onto their broken noses and thinking about nose gap. Then throw in the realization that getting blinded is the worst thing that could happen that would be reasonably likely and you'll see why the ASTM spec is so stringent.

Currently there is no ASTM spec for airsoft pellets. It is likely that most of it will be borrowed from the pball spec with adjustments made for a smaller projectile diameter. I would guess that the nose fitment issue will become even more critical because of the smaller projectiles we use.

[ShelledPants]

Originally Posted by MadMax

The ANSI rating is an insufficient specification for paintball eye protection. The ANSI rating only covers the ballistic properties of the lens of tactical goggles. It is likely that an ASTM rated goggle would also pass the ANSI ballistic test.

The big difference between the ASTM F1776-01 specification and the ANSI (can't rem the number) spec is that the ASTM spec also includes retention (strap), forced particle (paint shell fragments driven by liquid) exclusion, and incoming angle tests.

Most ANSI specs only deal with line of sight coverage and lens impact ballistic performance which doesn't necessarily make a safe goggle for paintball. Did you know that most pball goggles must be worn with the face mask to retain their ASTM rating? Reliable fitment around the bridge of the nose is a difficult problem with goggles. Some players may have a nose shape which can open a gap around the bridge of the nose and allow a pball to slip in around the nose and into the orbital region. For this reason, pball masks are required to have their facemasks mounted to provide line of sight coverage into these potential gaps.

ASTM specifications also have stringent knockoff requirements. IRC ASTM compliant goggles must be able to stay firmly seated if they are hit on the rear side edge with 10 aimed strikes with pballs from a standardized marker. Basically a dummy head is set up and a marker blasts balls at playing velocities at point blank hitting the side of goggles under test from behind. Crazy tangential impact intended to test the anti shift nature of the headstrap. Similar tests are done for top down and bottom up angles.

The ASTM requirements are significantly more stringent because of the nature of the threat at hand. With combat firearms, goggles provide negligible protection against primary threats like incoming fire (who fires birdshot in a gunfight in Iraq?). 7.62/5.56 proof goggles are nearly impossible to wear and stay mobile. It's hard enough to make opaque crap to stop those projectiles let alone something that you can see through. ANSI goggles are supposed to stop dust, close shot spray, and shell casings. If you have a lot of incoming lead particles from close wall hits, you can't really rely on any reasonable combat goggle. In combat getting some wall spall in the face is bad, but it's not the worst that could happen. You could get shot in side where you haven't got a super heavy side plate, or an RPG could knock on the bathroom door when you're taking a crap. You basically have to protect everything so goggles aren't hugely focused upon.

Being fired upon is a constant occurance in pball. Then you also got dingbats not doing up their straps just right or mashing them onto their broken noses and thinking about nose gap. Then throw in the realization that getting blinded is the worst thing that could happen that would be reasonably likely and you'll see why the ASTM spec is so stringent.

Currently there is no ASTM spec for airsoft pellets. It is likely that most of it will be borrowed from the pball spec with adjustments made for a smaller projectile diameter. I would guess that the nose fitment issue will become even more critical because of the smaller projectiles we use.

+100

Awesome post. Thanks for clarifying everything so professionally.

[Yankee]

Well, it doesn't say it's safe - I'm still freaking.

Madmax, what do you use personnally?

[MadMax]

It's simple:

At a paintball field, you are required to wear ASTM compliant pball eye protection for insurance reasons. A pball fields insurance provider will require the use of ASTM F1776-01 compliant eyewear because they don't want to have to learn about all of the other standards that may or may not be applicable for pball. Say what you will about big pball goggles, it's unfair to invalidate your field providers insurance so you can wear something that looks cool or allows you to use a crappy airsoft replica optic that doesn't have enough eye relief.

For private games I often prefer my JT Spectras. Good pball goggles often have superior fog resistance than tactical goggles because good pball goggles have a second wall inside the ballistic lense which provides thermal insulation that reduces fog. The insulative air gap between lenses allows the inside lense to warm up to the air temperature inside the goggles which reduces condensation (fog). Most combat goggles often do not have this feature, but I think ESS is offering this feature. They started with skiing equipment like goggles and bindings. They've been thinking about fog about as long as pball.

Looking at a safety perspective and ignoring the insurance issues (say a private game at a friends farm) you need to look at fitment. This is an open ended issue because it depends on how your goggle fits your particular melon and melon face. Pball goggles seem to be much more compliant to various faces, but this comes at the cost of having a deep depth which gets in the way of some scopes and achieving a cheek weld with some players. The ballistic performance of pball and combat goggles are both quite good, you should be looking at other issues like fitment and strap retention.

All that being said, the ASTM spec for pball goggles is not tailored for airsoft. It's just the closest we've got for a safety spec for airsoft. I have a feeling that the spec will end up being ported over for airsoft use with some changes in wording (projectile specifications). Luckily for us, the pball goggle starts from an overengineered state which makes them pretty good for airsoft.

I've got a lot of eye pro:

JT Spectras: my go to goggles for any public game at an insured field. Excellent fitment due to it's soft compliant frame and thick foam. Good visibility and fog protection. Piles of accessories like goggle fans, lower masks, and visors add practical features like teeth retention.

Unfortunately their size and depth can interfere with cheek welds and scopes on some rifles. Zero coolness factor because every other barmitzvah attendee at your pball field has a grubby pair of Spectras, but if you take care of your Spectras, they'll be clear of fog and you can see where you shoot. The depth also lets me wear my sunglasses underneath which is a big plus to me. Changing the lenses is a bugger (because JT really doesn't want them to fall out) so I really appreciate being able to put on my sunglasses on sunny days under my eye pro.


Bolle T800: Light goggles that are very low profile. Not bad fog resistance owing to a deep ventilation gap above and below the lens. Still I see some players with fogged up Bolle T800s because of the single lense. These low profile goggles fit do not interfere with cheek welds, and few optics (except for NV or really bad airsoft scopes). Smooshy rubber frame with no sponge is nice and compliant and there's no absorbant foam to absorb your face stink.

The gap at the top and bottom kind of freaks me out. It's smaller than a bb, but it doesn't take much force to push one thru. Many players would point out that they're odd angles to get shot at (above or below) but we do take fire from those angles when we lay prone or when an attacker charges over a bunker.


ESS XT: Lower profile than pball goggles. They come in different sizes to help deal with the fitment issue. I've got a pair of small asian head sized goggles that fit me well, but I think they wouldn't fit any large megacephalic caucasians. I rarely see any size specifications so I think the sizes available are more dictated by country of distribution. Mine were bought in Japan at a militaria show so maybe the Japanese military has some special procurment deals with ESS.

Anyhow, they're bad with fog unless you remove the sponge dust filter at the top. I can't recall what kind of gap opens when the sponge is removed, but I kind of doubt that a 2mm thick sponge layer would do much in stopping a high energy pellet. Any close shot would whisper through such a thin hymen of sponge. The filter is important in Iraq with all the sand, but if you camp and sweat a lot, the low profile lens and reduced ventilation can cause some heavy fogging which got me shot in the back at Rawdon because my wingman went blind and thought I was a bad guy. ESS goggles have less foam than pball goggles and a stiffer frame which makes your fitment check more important because the goggles have less compliance.

The lenses are kind of loose in the frame which makes them really easy to change out for dark lenses. They're not unsecured in airsoft terms, but I could see them failing an ASTM pellet barrage test. Pball pellets are pretty heavy.