systema mp5

[MadMax]

I am a SystemA retailer. I don't bring in restricted stuff, but I get all the updates about their PTW releases and I've been following their PTW related work for some time now. I first got to see their stuff in person at ShotShow a couple years ago and I got to talk about their development plans then.

There's lots of places where SystemA can cut costs between their MP5 and Armalite line.

First off the gun is a lot shorter and the real steel build has a lot more plastic on it. A shorter overall build means a lot less machining. Cut an outer barrel in half and you cut the machining costs in half because you pay for half the material removal. A plastic large stock means one major part is eliminated which is an expensive multi axis lathe machined part. The base material is pretty cheap compared to the maching costs, especially if you use steel.

The MP5 frontend has to be cast because of it's complex shape. Even the real one is cast which dumps even more expensive CNC machining.

The real MP5 has a metal upper, and a plastic lower. That's another 50% less machining in simulating the real steel. Maybe HK had something in mind when they made their MP5 with plastic parts. Supposedly the real MP5 doesn't suck and the lower doesn't break. Perhaps SystemA can do the same.

Then you throw in an increase in production volume. Common parts like gears, electronics, and maybe even the motor can increase production volumes if you can share them with the Armalite and MP5 line. With the MP5 pilot only being 300pc and typical Armalite runs around a thousand, you can realize a pretty kickass reduction in per part cost if you can increase run size. All of the components in my hand grenade must be made in 5k+ run sizes to be economical. Gears and motors have a very high setup cost if you want to make good ones.

Conversely, CNC milled parts can be made in smaller lots economically. CNC maching requires much less setup than a gear hobbing run or a motor winding and assembly run. I see no reason why the MP5 would have to use the Armalite gearbox. There is not much economy of volume to be had in doubling up gearbox volume at the tradeoff of non customized fitment to the rest of the gun.

It wouldn't make sense since it would be much more accurate to register the motor directly to the gearbox. The Armalite registers the motor to the lower rec'r, which registers to the mechbox. This requires precise maching between three assemblies for consistent pinion-beval mesh. Mounting directly to the gearbox is more practical as you would be stacking the tolerances in only one engagement.

For instance for a close slip fit, one would have to machine with about 0.002" clearance between engagement surfaces to assure no binding and a close fit. This means that the motor could shift 0.002" in it's motor-rec'r seat and a further 0.002" in the rec'r-gearbox seat for a total tolerance stack of 0.004".

A direct motor-gearbox registration would cut that inconsistency in half (only one tolerance to stack). All things being equal, it is advantageous to reduce stacked tolerances where possible.

[Wilson]

Regardless, people are still going to be charging $2500 for this thing.

[Dracheous]

Originally Posted by Wilson

Regardless, people are still going to be charging $2500 for this thing.

Regardless people will still buy.

[wey ferro]

madmax, are you joking? mcguyver is right, he is god remember. he knows everything about everything from all his experience. whats he been playing for...3 years? ya he knows all. he is god.

[mcguyver]

I have a BB reserved just for you now, Riley.

[wey ferro]

i'll just run away

[mcguyver]

http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...ail?newsID=813

I hate to say "I told you so", but it looks like a modified Ver 2 lower with an as yet unseen cylinder, but the cylinder is not compatible with M-series PTW (cylinder head, spring guide and spring are supposedly). No planetary arrangement either, and custom motor for MP5 only (Magnum or Turbo perhaps?). Looks like only M90 for the time being, with up to M150 who knows when.

Enjoy!

[Lakonian]

Awesome. Finish looks incredible.

[Crunchmeister]

Originally Posted by Redwolf Airsoft site

...This Systema MP5-A4 is due for release in early March and is expected to cost $995US...Prices for the Challenge kits are expected to be $880US...

Based on those prices, I can almost certainly say we can expect the fully assembled unit to cost around between $2500-3000 and the challenge kit about $2000-2500.

[Moz]

well at least with the MP5 you can't complain that the systema costs more than the real steel.

[Daes]

The planetary gear system is what sold me on the armalite's, killer trigger response that is un-matched and without the sewing machine wind-up. This is definitely a bit of a let down. Still a beautiful job and the 4 selections of safe, semi, burst, and auto is great!

Maybe I missed it but any word on the cost of magazines?

-Daes

[Crunchmeister]

I like that they'll have 2 separate challenge kits - one for noobs and one for experienced builders. If the noob kit happens to NOT be over $1500 (which I doubt), I would be tempted to buy one and attempt assembly myself. I really love the fact that like the original, it has a 3-round burst setting.

[MadMax]

Woot! SystemA has given me permission to photograph their PTW, conduct an interview and test fire (test firing off site, not on ShotShow premises).

I'm excited as I should be able to get a press pass for their permission.

Their internals look really nice. I like the inclusion of both electrical units (control and FET switching) in the gearbox housing. I didn't like the strain relief issues with the wired FET assembly with the Armalite which also has very little heatsinking in the FET bank.

I'm not all that put off with the non planetary gears. It comes with a significant reduction in cost and well made step gears have lower rolling resistance than a platetary transmission. SystemA has a lot of experience with very high power assemblies (M170 springs w' torque up gears). A planetary arrangement and a step gear arrangement could have the same reduction ratio with lower rolling losses for the step gear arrangement. I don't see why the step gear setup would have any poorer reaction time. It looks like the detection hole in the sector gear could be useful for precocking the gearbox as it would like up with the optical gate just before the piston is released.

The selector switch appears to be a rotary switch or a potentiometer behind that unusual 4th gear in the mechbox. Manchovie pointed out a lack of clearance for the usual post that sticks out of an MP5 selector lever. It looks like the left and right selectors are connected to pinion gears which engage the two "4th" gears which are connected to a common shaft to synchronise the left and right selectors like a TM SIG 551. I think the common shaft is keyed and passes through a potentiometer or rotary switch. This simplifies the rack and pinion arrangement used by the Armalite. I've seen the Armalite selector go bad because the microswitch assembly is not very tolerant to slight innacuracies in manufacture or wear of the pips which are pushed down by the slider.

Too bad there are no shots of the mag tops or the hop up assembly. I'd really like to see if they fixed their designs there.

I think the Armalite cylinders will not be compatible with the MP5. I can see how SystemA could do a similar arrangement with a MP5 specific cylinder, but they'd need to cut a longer window to clear both the sector teeth and the step gear teeth (which are nearly the same height relative to the top of the gearbox). Still, I think the MP5 cylinders could be very similar to the Armalite cylinders with the exception of the length of the window cutout which means that the MP5 cyl's could be backwards compatible with the Armalite line, but not the other way. SystemA could be making their future cylinders to be compatible with both platforms.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by MadMax

Their internals look really nice. I like the inclusion of both electrical units (control and FET switching) in the gearbox housing. I didn't like the strain relief issues with the wired FET assembly with the Armalite which also has very little heatsinking in the FET bank.

I can change the EL-001 board without removing the gearbox in about 5 minutes. I can replace the EL-003 board in the M4 in about 5 minutes, all without removing the gearbox. This reminds me of having to spend an hour tearing an MP5 down to replace a switch. Absolute crap in my opinion, especially considering the well thought out construction of the M4.

Originally Posted by MadMax

I'm not all that put off with the non planetary gears. It comes with a significant reduction in cost and well made step gears have lower rolling resistance than a platetary transmission. SystemA has a lot of experience with very high power assemblies (M170 springs w' torque up gears). A planetary arrangement and a step gear arrangement could have the same reduction ratio with lower rolling losses for the step gear arrangement. I don't see why the step gear setup would have any poorer reaction time. It looks like the detection hole in the sector gear could be useful for precocking the gearbox as it would like up with the optical gate just before the piston is released.

But they don't seem to be using helical gears, so good luck with an M150.

Originally Posted by MadMax

The selector switch appears to be a rotary switch or a potentiometer behind that unusual 4th gear in the mechbox. Manchovie pointed out a lack of clearance for the usual post that sticks out of an MP5 selector lever. It looks like the left and right selectors are connected to pinion gears which engage the two "4th" gears which are connected to a common shaft to synchronise the left and right selectors like a TM SIG 551. I think the common shaft is keyed and passes through a potentiometer or rotary switch. This simplifies the rack and pinion arrangement used by the Armalite. I've seen the Armalite selector go bad because the microswitch assembly is not very tolerant to slight innacuracies in manufacture or wear of the pips which are pushed down by the slider.

And this geared selector arrangement is better that a simple rack gear? There are more PTWs in Alberta by far than all of Ontario, and I've never heard of a selector problem in an M4. I'll bet they haven't heard of it Europe or Asia or the U.S. either. If they have, it's not posted on PTW-users forum. Give your head a shake man!!!

Originally Posted by MadMax

I think the Armalite cylinders will not be compatible with the MP5.

This has already been confirmed.

This is MP5 is a huge disappointment. They have obviously had to rush this thing to market, made some really poor design choices, deviated grossly from their tried and true PTW format, and try to package and market it as "the best PTW ever". Anyone who even remotely believes that has not owned or even seen the AR series.

And at $2000 in Canada, this is a joke. I could build 3 MP5s with comparable parts and give up the electronic control for that money. And with a standard AEG gear set, it won't perform like a PTW does now, I promise you that.

I had really hoped they would bring an actual PTW to market. But, it seems they like the $$$ even more than I thought, and would like to target the masses with a bastardized Ver 2 mechbox and call it a "training weapon".

I share your disappointment DAES!!

And I won't buy one for the record, and I'd say you'd be a fool to drop $2K on it. NOT WORTH IT AT ALL!!!

[Griffin]

So for the MP5 are they making a completely new type of cylinder type system?. Take from Redwolf there description leads you to believe it would be the same as the current PTW's.

"The MP5-A4 will come standard with the M90 Spring Cylinder Unit"