Lasers in airsoft for Dummies

[Derpystronk]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

In the case of a laser, it must go directly into your eye for an amount of time in order to do damage. That's pretty hard to do unless you are trying at close, close, very close range.

Yes and no - and it's mostly no.

The amount of time it needs to stay in your eye ball to cause any significant damage decreases dramatically on factors such as power and wavelength. Whereas a .7mw laser can stay in your eye pretty much forever without any issue, a 5mw laser can start to cause damage fairly quickly.

While the amount of damage that a 5mw laser can cause is limited and small, that damage is pretty much permanent.

The reason why red lasers are limited to 5mw or less for a majority of applications (dollar store laser pointer) is because your blink reflex kicks in before any real damage can occur. It's not a perfect guarantee but for the most part your eye breaks beam contact before it can get destroyed. Your body recognizes that the amount of light is actually dangerous and does what it can to get away from it. Much like pulling your hand away from a hot stove.

Now here's where the fun begins;

IR Lasers don't have that blink reflex.

From a community standpoint we are lucky that IR Lasers like the G&P DBAL have not had a super power IR Laser in them. Just based on what I can observe testing with other lasers it seems to float around 8mw or so. Still dangerous, but nowhere near as bad as it could have been. Even a cursory look at eBay and other sites have random ass home built / china built lasers using diodes anywhere from 30mw to 200mw. These lasers are readily available because Green lasers actually use an IR diode and use prism magic to make it green. So China has access to all these beautiful super high power lasers and sometimes sells them as weapon lasers with a rail mount included.

Getting blasted with a 100mw laser will, basically, fuck your eye. Doesn't matter how long it would take. Your eye is fucked.

Would your eye ball still get fucked with a 8mw IR laser? Less likely. It's still very possible that it's going to happen eventually, especially given how some people only poke their heads out from over cover when trying to shoot back. Your head is the only target in many cased - that is where the laser is going to be pointing.

So where does that leave us:

Class 1, eye safe lasers. Certifiable, third party accountability. I don't give a damn about origin of the laser as much as some people in this thread as I know a number of the US Lasers are made overseas in places like Taiwan and China. I have used some random East Bloc lasers that are available here in Canada very easily that are also certified as eye safe. I don't mind having a Beamshot or a USNV Triad on the field any more than I do an LDI or L3, because all four of those companies have offices in the US and have to abide by US Laws or they face the wrath of the FDA.

Why will ThunderCactus's laser never be allowed in the province of Ontario? Because he is a random nobody who is running a literal basement operation. There is no accountability, there is no guarantee these lasers are kosher. I have no idea what they are capable of. I have no idea if he has made a super cool high power version for his buddies, I have no idea about the lab that is testing this shit or whether or not their tests are accurate. I have no idea how to tell this item apart from the unmodified ones.

Most importantly I don't have the time to even call the lab to verify they even DID test the laser and it is appropriate for use on the field. I have a game to run.

We need to know 100%, without a doubt, these lasers are good to go. Cause if a company like LDI slapped "Class 1 eye safe" onto a high power unit, at the very least that results in a lawsuit when that eye damage occurs... But that doesn't happen because their quality control is very high, and they make a high quality product. I can trust that manufacturer and so can a majority of players.

Can I trust the guy who said it's okay to use a non eye safe laser on people because they didn't complain about it, despite not knowing the risk (or maybe even not knowing it was on the field)? Who is pumping these things out of his garage with a soldering iron and diodes he bought on Alibaba.com?

I don't mean to be a dick Cactus, and I think I'm driving this point harder than I should be, but the lasers are getting used on other people. The owner of the device does not have to worry about his own safety. It's like if a person showed up at a game with a gun that can somehow shoot past peoples eye pro. He's still perfectly safe, as he's the only one with that gun. Some people might say "Hey, I don't want you using the gun that shoots past my googles. It might hurt my eye" and you say "Oh it's okay it won't hurt your eye I promise" - the difference being it's not your eyes on the line.

This is, literally, how people feel.

[Ricochet]

Maybe I'm not being heard, but that's okay. A laser must enter the eye for ocular damage to occur, period. Depending on the power of the laser will determine how long it must remain in the eye for damage to occur, period. There are lasers that can damage your eyes instantly upon contact, or entering through the lense, I never said there wasn't. I don't know if I have seen such a laser on an airsoft field and I surely wouldn't put it to the test. Hitting an eye directly(small ass target), with a laser (small ass projectile), and having it remain on that target for more than a micro-second (never mind head movement, hand shaking, etc), with a super dangerous/will blind you instantly class of laser, on an airsoft field in game, is pretty freakin' astronomical. That was my point, not that we should avoid safety. I think that only approved lasers should be allowed in airsoft, but with some of the morons I've played with, I'd also expect some way of holding accountability. Here's a question, is there a laser device out there that has a variable output? On low it's safe, but turn it up and it isn't? My point thee is, there are variable FPS guns, etc, but a high FPS gun isn't really something that concerns me as I'll only get hurt and not damage my eyesight. Much like chronoing a gun and then swapping cylinders. Perhaps there isn't a device like that, but I couldn't say. We shouldn't be scaring the begeesus out of people yet though, especially seeing as all game hosts won't be on the same page.

Everytime you step onto the airsoft field we accept a certain amount of risk. Where I play right now, lasers are outright banned. That doesn't mean some assclown isn't going to throw one on in game and blind me anyways. Don't tell me you guys haven't seen someone crank up their FPS after a chrono or use a silica round or throw on a laser after the safety briefing. The budget airsoft mentality seems to be much like the pirate mentality. Just as people can't afford movies, music, etc, and so they just steal it, those who can't afford proper equipment in airsoft, will run chinese/eye dangerous knock off crap even if it's against the rules. The probability is high, and these are the jerks who will shine it in someone's face. Do you still play airsoft, or do you stay at home in case someone runs an improper laser? So lasers aren't the boogie men we're making them out to be. There needs to be safety regulations, but like everything else, if you outright ban then you will lose a chunk of the market. Players who are willing to spend whatever it takes to have top tiered gear, and lets just say a proper and safe real steel IR laser are going to want to run it. So if they are banned, those players will play elsewhere. If you allow them to run the proper laser, then those that can't afford them will run cheaper knockoffs, even if the aren't allowed to. So lasers are apart of airsoft, there's no denying that. So to me at least, a measuring device on the field seems to be the only reasonable option for large games that allow them. Not to mention, if they are becoming an issue, your admins will have to know what to look for and strictly enforce laser safety.

I still think I'm at more risk of hearing damage from all of the grenades and devices I've seen over the tears, and yet no one ever seems to care about sound devices or things that go bang.

Easiest way to enforce lasers, is ban all visible ones, they aren't necessary. I won't even put mine on my gun with the battery out for looks, it's just not on me in game at all ever. Allow for 1mw IR lasers max. Non variable, from Canada, US distributors with proper documentation. So that players can at least use their night vision to its full extent.

[Derpystronk]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Maybe I'm not being heard, but that's okay. A laser must enter the eye for ocular damage to occur, period. Depending on the power of the laser will determine how long it must remain in the eye for damage to occur, period. There are lasers that can damage your eyes instantly upon contact, or entering through the lense, I never said there wasn't. I don't know if I have seen such a laser on an airsoft field and I surely wouldn't put it to the test.

The thing is these lasers exist and are readily available. G&P DBAL's are at 8mw, which will cause permanent damage immediately. How much? I don't know. I'm not putting my eyes up to the test. NCStar green lasers which I have seen people not realize are unsafe have their IR filter melt, which means they are leaking way, way more in the infrared spectrum than just 5mw of green (We are talking even potentially 30-50mw of power leakage or higher) The list goes on.

Any of these lasers will slowly start to destroy your eye ball immediately. The damage is permanent. I have seen people try and bring them on to the field more times than I have seen someone try and use even the cheapest of real steel red weapon lasers - mostly because it's the stuff they pick up from Airsoft stores or eHobby or wherever.

Hitting an eye directly(small ass target), with a laser (small ass projectile), and having it remain on that target for more than a micro-second (never mind head movement, hand shaking, etc), with a super dangerous/will blind you instantly class of laser, on an airsoft field in game, is pretty freakin' astronomical.

It's actually NOT astronomical. It's called playing the game. Over the course of a multiple hour event, where you will have a number of engagements happening, there is going to be atleast one fight where a guy is shooting overtop of cover he is behind. How much of his body is exposed? His gun and his head. The guy with NVG's aiming with his laser? He's going to designate his retina's a couple of times - if the laser is powerful enough with each pass of the beam over his eye socket he will be sandpapering more and more of it off.

but with some of the morons I've played with, I'd also expect some way of holding accountability.

Prevention is better than cure, especially when there is no cure for eye damage.

Here's a question, is there a laser device out there that has a variable output? On low it's safe, but turn it up and it isn't? My point thee is, there are variable FPS guns, etc, but a high FPS gun isn't really something that concerns me as I'll only get hurt and not damage my eyesight.

There are. All of those devices have safety block outs that are installed on them that prevent the dial from being moved onto those settings. Even if that block is removed, and someone were to be using the laser on high power... It's pretty obvious to ANYONE with NVG's. The laser battle goes from a simple projected dot to a solid beam of light / light saber.

We shouldn't be scaring the begeesus out of people yet though, especially seeing as all game hosts won't be on the same page.

I agree these discussions go overboard and get overly political, but at the same time the problem is you have people arguing against the concept. If YOU think it's safe, and the person on the receiving end doesn't consent to that laser, you can't use it on them. It's that simple.

Now it's a bit different if someone shows up to a game and goes "Oh I don't want those guys using those LDI Lasers, I don't feel safe around them" even though they are certified as eye safe by the FDA, both Canada and the US, and was posted in the rules ahead of time that the lasers would be allowed at the game? That person is free to go home. This isn't a basement hack job, however.

will run chinese/eye dangerous knock off crap even if it's against the rules. The probability is high, and these are the jerks who will shine it in someone's face.

It's why I have a laser registry for all my events. You have to sign up your lasers ahead of time. If you show up at the game with a laser but didn't notify me ahead of time? Cool beans - take it off your weapon cause you didn't follow the rules. If you put it back on and use it anyways? You'll be trespassed from the property and never allowed back.

This is just my personal policy. I do spot checks with this as well. Some people tag lasers, some people just simply remember who is using them on the field. Everyone has their own system.

So if they are banned, those players will play elsewhere. If you allow them to run the proper laser, then those that can't afford them will run cheaper knockoffs, even if the aren't allowed to. So lasers are apart of airsoft, there's no denying that.

That is the great thing - those people are easy to spot on the field. Luckily most China red lasers, even if a person sneaks it onto the field, are still within the 5mw diode range. Since China uses cheap parts, and those 5mw red diodes are so widely available, they are cheap to make. So even if a guy is sneaking around and using it, it won't be really dangerous to anybody in between him using it and him getting caught.

Green lasers are always outright banned, so if you see a green laser that solves that problem. The guys with NVG's can know when something is off and call Game Control (since if they have NVG's, IR Lasers and the other fun toys, they have a radio). That person gets caught with a laser while they are blatantly breaking the rules? They never get to play again.

There is no playing smart and not getting caught in this matter - it's a device you have to point at people. The people on the receiving end are going to know.

So to me at least, a measuring device on the field seems to be the only reasonable option for large games that allow them. Not to mention, if they are becoming an issue, your admins will have to know what to look for and strictly enforce laser safety.

But we don't have to spend all the dosh on light meters. There is a very limited list of these lasers that exist. I could probably recite them all from memory if you asked me. The way to tell knock offs from legit units is also fairly easy if you are familiar with them. When new IR Lasers come to market or become available, we as a community will know. If you end up bringing a laser no one has ever seen before you should probably start messaging hosts / people well in advance.

I still think I'm at more risk of hearing damage from all of the grenades and devices I've seen over the tears, and yet no one ever seems to care about sound devices or things that go bang.

Easiest way to enforce lasers, is ban all visible ones, they aren't necessary.

See I would disagree with you on that point. I'm leaning more and more on getting rid of Thunder B's and other sound distraction devices, but am 100% okay with red lasers on the field. There is no flash to go with the bang, and the only reason the thunder b's really mess with people is because of the physical discomfort they cause - which is, you know, the damage. I have seen a few people use red lasers at games effectively and not once have I had an issue with them.

But this is also my personal stance and hosting policies. Other people have different policies. I saw a thread for a game in Montreal once have a complete and utter meltdown cause a guy was trying to host a game where red lasers were permitted. At the end of the day it's down to the community / market forces at work.

=====================================

For everyone;

To reel back to the original discussion - the problem has now been solved. As of right this second we have two major lasers available for purchase. We have that Lasermax Unit available for around 235 dollars, which is the cheap end of the spectrum. It is NOT getting any cheaper than that. Period. The excuses for needing a cheap option have been met. It's there. Get it.

Want something a bit more beefier that looks like a cool laser attachment? We also have laser options available from Newcon Optik - a Canadian company - with the cheapest one being 800 dollars or so. They have both eye safe and non-eye safe versions, so make sure you get the eye safe version. They also have versions that have illuminators built in, and even one with with an illuminator and a slaved red laser (Basically, a PEQ-15). There is your cool, badass lasers.

Want something a little less Russian? Be prepared to pay out the nose. I Run Guns was exporting DBAL's and OTAL's for the majority of this year. They had the proper paperwork to make it happen. They have dried up for now. It looks like Burris might not be making any more DBAL's, so we may have to wait until they get the Steiner branded ones, or just getting them direct from LDI. When will this happen? I don't know. There are a few other sources for these lasers but they all want different ITAR forms signed which cost many dollars and then the lasers themselves are priced through the ceiling.

There, you have lasers from 200 dollars all the way up to a couple thousand. You have cheap lasers, expensive lasers, and everything in between. There is no more need to discuss this. No more need to talk about hypothetical soldering guns and basement jobs. There are currently lasers available for purchase in Canada very easily, and some more tacticool ones available with a bit of work and patience.

There are two major retailers/manufacturers that I know of that are working on bringing IR Lasers to market, with Canada in sights as well as the US. When will these magical lasers appear and/or happen, if they even do? One might be as soon as a couple weeks, or it might be months. I don't know. All I can say is there are people working on this "problem" right now.

That is it. Discussion over. No need for basement lasers or G&P DBALs. 200 dollars gets you into the laser game. It is not getting any cheaper than that folks. Everyone pack up and go home. We are done here.

[Ricochet]

Good post.

[c3sk]

Streamlight Class 1 IR Lasers + Flashlight available to ship to Canada off of ebay.

[Zack The Ripper]

Originally Posted by c3sk

Streamlight Class 1 IR Lasers + Flashlight available to ship to Canada off of ebay.

Of course I have brakes, rotors, a RPAL course and my insurance renewal this month to pay for so I can't buy this..

[ThunderCactus]

Originally Posted by King Deltastone

There are two major retailers/manufacturers that I know of that are working on bringing IR Lasers to market, with Canada in sights as well as the US. When will these magical lasers appear and/or happen, if they even do? One might be as soon as a couple weeks, or it might be months. I don't know. All I can say is there are people working on this "problem" right now.

And that would be fucking fantastic. Then I wouldn't have to deal with the hassle of getting them UL approved.
Can you get any more accuracy on that timeline?

[c3sk]

Originally Posted by Zack The Ripper

Of course I have brakes, rotors, a RPAL course and my insurance renewal this month to pay for so I can't buy this..

Well yeah, should definitely not buy one then...

[Shogun-G]

3 questions:

1- Is there anywhere people are aware of in the different provinces that can get lasers tested with documentation provided with that test?

2- If this is possible - what kind of costs are involved to do this?

3- Is there a light meter device that you can purchase (like a chrono) that you can use to measure the intensity/strength of any laser - including IR lasers?

Thank you!

PS - Thanks for the great information and insight provided in this thread!

[ThunderCactus]

You can buy laser power meters and test on the spot, however there are some complications:
-You need to already know what the wavelength of the particular beam you're testing is in order to get the most accurate reading
-They range from $200-$800
-Even after testing, some really poorly built lasers (the kind that use filters to "tune down" certain high output wavelengths of lasers into other lower output wavelengths) can have filters fail and jump up in output

The "best" solution is to only allow brand-name class 1 lasers, however this is similar to enforcing a 300fps limit by only allowing tokyo marui guns.
It IS a solid method right now, but there's really nothing stopping anyone from modifying a class 1 laser to be a class 3 laser. And it's honestly not even that difficult.

[ThunderCactus]

Originally Posted by King Deltastone

There are two major retailers/manufacturers that I know of that are working on bringing IR Lasers to market, with Canada in sights as well as the US. When will these magical lasers appear and/or happen, if they even do? One might be as soon as a couple weeks, or it might be months. I don't know. All I can say is there are people working on this "problem" right now.

Any update on those affordable class 1 IR laser units yet?

[mcguyver]

Irunguns is selling the ATPIAL-C for about $1600. Easily affordable.

[c3sk]

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[ThunderCactus]

So no updates on those affordable class 1 IR laser yet?

[tiger111]