See through guns and the death of "airsoft"

[gerbalfarm]

I've been following this thread and I have found myself agreeing with some people on points and utterly flabberghasted by other peoples way of thinking.

That being said I found the last couple pages to be best of the whole topic, where it's been brought to light the game hosts responsibilities and the lack of hosts knowing what to do about issues or really knowing how to run a good solid game (milsim or skirmish).

I think if hosts knew what was expected of them and where taught how to deal with problems hosting an AS game can have. While setting and enforcing standards of play would do alot to curb alot of the issues people seem to be having with new players. If hosts set standards and kick out the f-tards that dont follow them, than either the 'tards will learn to play by the rules or they will leave. The ball is in their court at that point. They can choose to follow the rules and standards of play or they can leave. If they choose to smarten up great another responsible player for the community, if not than great one less social reject the community needs to deal with.

It's not the guns that are an issue, it's the quality of player that they are enabling to access the community. Now the community has to step up, respond to the changing AS enviroment and enforce the basic standards and rules of the sport.

People dont join a football/baseball/etc team and go to a game with out a team uniform,pads or helmet. People should'nt play AS with out a set of camo, boots, googles etc. Thats a standard that should be enforced at a game host level and accepted by players. Sure not every hockey player can or will buy a uber fiberglass hockey stick of doom (eq. Black high end AEG) some will buy a hockey stick they can afford or are willing to pay for ( half breed AEG) but they all have to follow the same game rules and wear the same level of basic equipment. Yes it's expensive, but ANY sport/hobby is.

Besides it's only as expensive as you make it. Go to a surplus store get some cheap OD's, used combat boots, webbing for around $150 throw in a paintball mask for what? $45? and your set to start out.

The AS community is a pretty self regulatory beast, so it's up to everyone to know the standards and rules. You don't want to follow them tough, they're called standards and rules for a reason.

Game hosts are the major point of enforcment for these rules. If a game host does'nt know the standards or enforce them than there will continue to be a problem with dumb ass players. But game hosts need to know HOW to run a game with as few problems to begin with. So I think having a Game hosting codex/bible/instruction manual will be a great boon to the community. Not only will it help new games hosts games, it will help to standardize and codifey the basic rules and standards the community expects everyone to follow.

I for one am really anxious to try and host a game, BUT I know that just because I can imagine how the game will go, it doesn't mean thats whats going to happen in reality. I don't know what makes a good game or how to avoid huge mistakes. So if/when you do make a game hosting guide Brian, I'll be one of the first inline to snag a copy.

Sorry for the long rambling rant, but i had alot of thoughts to put down. Just my $.02

[Mikhail]

Perhaps before a thread is created with the intent of creating such a 'hosting manual', there is 2 questions to be asked (perhaps more)

1) Does a similar document exist or has such a work been attempted before and remained unfinished?

2)Would there be sufficient interest and support from EXPERIENCED hosts to contribute to its compilation?

[Rumpel Felt]

I agree with the whole "standards" thing going here from the experienced players.

Safety rules and general participation guidelines need to be addressed more thoroughly in general. I haven't attended a lot of games recently or consistantly, but when comapiring my recent events to those of my first days structure has been a bit lost; in certain styles that is, I've still been to certain themed games that were awesome and had great co-ordination.

In general though, it's the clearsoft stuff and highcaps I think we should draw the line at. Why bother playing airsoft if we are using something that is less than a 1:1 replica and something that sounds like a hopper when running around with it? Some will say it's for the love of the game.... But what game? The act of shooting at each other in a force-on-force environment? If you want to do that, there is a far more readily accesible hobby called paintball to do so.

So really, to anyone who wants to play and wants to come out with a clear gun and/or highcap to spary around, why not just play paintball? At that point it's just the same thing basically except better in that it's harder for your targets to cheat.

[zone 69]

Well thinking that all noobs should have 1:1 replica,s just is not realistic at this time when the real airsoft/full metal black guns are just unitanible for all to wish to play.
Im not saying you can't find the good stuff its just theres not enuff to go around for all to get into the sport. So the better brand clearsoft is there to fill the gap witch is a good thing in my eyes. And a little bit of paint will fix the clear.

[gerbalfarm]

Following that line of thought, than everyone should have full metal bodies and metal real cap mags. I don't see how a halfbreed with the clear portion painted black is any different the a stock TM/CA with a plastic body. I agree with you on the hi-cap's though,can't stand the things. Used one once, never again.

[Mikhail]

In regards to clearsoft, that I have not seen mentioned, is its upgrade-ability. I think of the Kraken, which was my first gun. A paint job is a good thing, but clearsoft also gave me a more attainable upgrade path to the weapon I ultimately wanted, but could not justify in one purchase.

Indeed clearsoft Krakens have allowed two more of my friends (and other locals) to 'get in the game' both play and upgrade wise. My wife got one and now it has a new reciever, wood kit and real bayonet(regd upgrading the front end to more metal) and mine is now around 13 pounds of metal (not much plastic left). Another guy, John, was on half hours but wanted to play and has been a great addition (ex military) but being on work share, without the clearsoft option of a Kraken, never would have been able to justify the initial cost.

And frankly, when John charges the field, in good fire team coordination...you just don't notice the clearsoft...its got a quality player wrapped around it, and you are too busy keeping your head down or keeping up.

Hicaps...well...mine CAME with a drum...and I have set it up as support, and thus enjoy the heavy weight of the weapon...so I guess I can justify it...but all of us dislike the winding enough that buying a couple boxes of midcap Bakelite 74s fixed that.

So there ya go, an evolution of clearsoft to real both player and equipment wise, that would not have been possible without that initial platform, that is the clearsoft Kraken.

As we didn't need host or peer pressure to pursue this, just love of the game and respect for the weapon, it would suggest that your clearsoft user will vary.

Clearsoft can bring new players, its true. To say that ALL clearsoft players are not worth it, or generalizing their quality in any way, I think would be a mistake.

[m102404]

It just might work...

Help Me With My First Purchase

[Rumpel Felt]

Originally Posted by Mikhail

but could not justify in one purchase.

....never would have been able to justify the initial cost.

This is the kind of mentality presented to me when I was first getting into the hobby 5 years ago. The common recommendation was "buy a TM for it's upgradability!" I was puzzeled. Why is more upgradability a good thing? The thing with clearsoft, and TM for me, is that you have to upgrade almost everything to turn it into a respectable gun. Of all the people who bought TM guns I read about and saw, most just ended up replacing and upgrading everthing. Which essentially leaves you with a few original bits a pieces from the TM factory now worth a couple hundred bucks. Where as I would just buy a CA gun (which I have had many of, older models too) and not really have to do much to it and thus not push the 'upgrade' cost to over a 1000 bucks; everything just came with it.

Anyway, point is now, if you buy a clearsoft gun you're going to end up having to upgrade even more than a TM gun. A plastic TM reciever is at least do-able. A clearsoft one, not really. I mean if you're going to play with a clear reciever, like I said, why not just do paintball then.

Airsoft is an 'initial' cost hobby. I don't see why people want to jump the gun on that and try to cheap out. Even if it means buying a clearsoft gun that is a couple hundred cheaper at first.... Think long term. Think about the airsoft bug. It's going to get you. That initial cost is going to bloom far beyond buying a stand-up gun out of the box once you get tempted to upgrade and replace everything. Then you're left with a couple bolts, screws, pins and wires here and there which are all that's left of your 'initial' couple hundred dollars cheaper purchase.

I think some degree of standards should encouraged. Instead of splurging on "a gun that sends BB's downrange" right away to get into the hobby, why not wait and save a bit and go at it prepaired and with a good investment?

[Mikhail]

Hmm...less an issue of 'mentality' and more an issue of economic realities.

For many of us the option to drop 600 on a gun, in a new sport is simply impossible.

However...dropping 200, then spending 400 more over the course of then next few months IS doable...and enjoyable! You learn a lot, and like customizing a race car, you are in control.

Anyway, point is now, if you buy a clearsoft gun you're going to end up having to upgrade even more than a TM gun.

My friend John has just upgraded the shims and bushings on his Kraken, and is competing just fine. No reason to upgrade further as of yet. Its shooting 1 joule, and is reliable. But I take your point.

While I agree that the BEST method is to lay out the cash for the best gun...while getting a clearsoft Kraken can be argued as a poorer choice financially in the long run. But like children, its sorta silly to make decisions purely on what you may end up spending in total. For now John I and my wife are playing, and thus can justify spending more in a sport we enjoy together.

[Mikhail]

Originally Posted by Mikhail

Perhaps before a thread is created with the intent of creating such a 'hosting manual', there is 2 questions to be asked (perhaps more)

1) Does a similar document exist or has such a work been attempted before and remained unfinished?

snip

Sorry for the double post, but I found this:
http://www.downpourproductions.com/u...manual_1_0.pdf

It is discussed here:
http://www.airsoftretreat.com/forums...?topic=83630.0

It is interesting but not exactly the thing we have been looking at doing.

Also in a somewhat differant combat sport, a referance to a 'Book of Combat':

http://www.antir.sca.org/Pubs/Abc/ABC.pdf

A brief excerpt from the introduction:

'It should always be remembered that these rules are intended to help us conduct our sport in chivalry and safety but they are just a starting place. We are conscious individuals who have chosen to play a sport that has very real risks. Bruises, pulled muscles and broken bones are all potential parts of our sport and no set of rules could protect us from all potential risks while leaving us with a fun game.

This is also one of very few places when you are rely on the honor system and we are all depending on your chivalry for this to work. Our guiding tenet of “the struck combatant calls the blow” can be easily abused but it is the basis of what makes this a game of chivalry. As fighting participants, we will each be faced with an opponent whose integrity we might question. We must take these incidents as an opportunity to demonstrate our own chivalry while working to make our sport better.

If you have questions about a blow, ask about it or let it slide as your conscience dictates but do not let suspicions breed your own dishonor. Do not take the fight off the field, when you leave the field the fight should be considered over and the result accepted as it stands.'

Sound familiar?

Much of the challenges we face today in our sport the SCA has already faced in theirs. And they have 40+ years to get it squared away. I am not saying that their solutions are neccessarily ours, but it would seem encouraging that a similar sport with similar challanges was able to deal with them. How we deal with ours (perceived 'Death of our Sport') is up to us.

Anyways its a couple examples of online documents that may inspire us to do something similar.

And as I just quoted myself, I have to go wash now :-)

[nidan]

Seems I have a few things going against me here.
I'm 40 plus, a noob, who uses a clearsoft Kraken, who has wasted money upgrading it.
Guess what, I have FUN!! I keep up just fine, in fact I do a darn good job or so my compatriots say ruefully rubbing their BB'd hides.
We all start off as not fully informed noobs, even the best of us who tell us who they are.
My clearsoft Kraken shooting 370 fps out of the box, (chronied at claybank) has been painted, new spring and bushings and now outshoots a lot of the high-end stuff that is aimed at me, or where I was. I consider it money well spent.
I like the way Mikhail puts it...an economic reality more than a mental issue.
If my goal is to have fun, and I have fun with what I can afford to use, is that wrong? I don't slow down the game and my Kraken has been the most reliable weapon on the field so far. It has taken me through the Claybank, Sk game without a hiccup. Has great range, accuracy, durability and reliability.

Despite my middle age crisis, I am enjoying Airsoft immensely. A great group of people with Honor. So few endeavours can say that these days.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by nidan

Seems I have a few things going against me here.
I'm 40 plus, a noob, who uses a clearsoft Kraken, who has wasted money upgrading it.
Guess what, I have FUN!! I keep up just fine, in fact I do a darn good job or so my compatriots say ruefully rubbing their BB'd hides.
We all start off as not fully informed noobs, even the best of us who tell us who they are.
My clearsoft Kraken shooting 370 fps out of the box, (chronied at claybank) has been painted, new spring and bushings and now outshoots a lot of the high-end stuff that is aimed at me, or where I was. I consider it money well spent.
I like the way Mikhail puts it...an economic reality more than a mental issue.
If my goal is to have fun, and I have fun with what I can afford to use, is that wrong? I don't slow down the game and my Kraken has been the most reliable weapon on the field so far. It has taken me through the Claybank, Sk game without a hiccup. Has great range, accuracy, durability and reliability.

Despite my middle age crisis, I am enjoying Airsoft immensely. A great group of people with Honor. So few endeavours can say that these days.

you are not the problem.. you are the solution, mature players with their heads screwed on right

[CARL]

The problem here is our Laws, that is what caused all these thing to go wrong. Put the blame on Canadians in general for voting for liebrals and NDP politicians. They have waged war against the gun community for decades, and created the ant-gun socialist paradise which we refer to as our nightmare. That's why prices were so high for low quality products which we refer to as top quality in the airsoft field are actually junk for the amount of money spent on them.

The solutions are already out their, if you want good games. then set up more private games with good rules, also leaning more to what Brian is doing is a good start, that will weed out all the crap players. Milsim is the way, i would prefer more older and ex mil/le members as well only games.

I could care less about new players coming in droves, but would prefer only top choices to come join the community only.

[Capt.erHead]

Skimming through all these cranky old fart posts with postulations of what 'killed' airsoft (I admit I didn't have the patience to read every single post restating the same tired premise.) I believe most of you have missed the point.

I purchased my first airsoft gun in 1998, a TM M16A1. This gun was ALL plastic on the outside except for the trigger...the internals were flimsy and I went through 3 gear boxes in 2 years. The gun cost me $200 and was a steep price for a 16 year old. I remember working my a$$ off that summer to be able afford a WA 1911, a WA M11, a TM MP5K PDW and countless accessories/gear to fulfill my new found passion. I spent $1200 on airsoft that year and I was more than fully equipped.

Since then, on a trip to HK 2 years ago and from currently residing in the US, decent, higher quality (than my original M16 or WA GBBs) airsoft guns are CHEAPER than they were in 1998. Taking into consideration inflation from 11 years ago the price is cheaper still.

That brings me to two reasons why Airsoft is virtually dead in Canada, first Airsoft is a toy and children should be able to play with toys. A vast majority of us old farts started playing when we were children or at least near children. The community, scared of retaliation from the government and media, attempted to make their toys and their game an adult 'sport.' Thus marginalizing the new blood and dooming the 'elite' version of the game to die a slow death as players 'grew up' by selling off their toy guns to buy real ones or to raise families, etc.

Second, from greed and ever tightening border restrictions prices increased steadily until the present state in which a real steel AR can be purchased for less than that of a high quality airsoft toy.

To sum it all up, 'elite' airsoft died because of the sheer cost of the guns and by taking it away from those that would best propogate the sport the way in which we, the community, would have liked to see flourish.

Clearsoft merely filled in the vacuum that was created by marginalizing young players.

It's certainly been interesting to be part of a community and watch it quickly grow to its pinnacle and then watch it slowly die a drawn out death.

[kalnaren]

I think we need to remember here guys is the issue isn't really clear guns.. it's the mass availability of clear guns leading to a gradual decline in the quality of the player base.

I think most of this can be fixed with hosts going back to enforcing their rules. I remember when I first started playing, before every game, the rules were explained with a "you fuck around, you're out." Now, almost noone explains any rules and douchebaggery and simply bad playing practices (hosing with highcaps) are tolerated. I hate to drop it on the hosts...I know you guys have it hard and hosting a game is hard... but I'm not going to report something if the host isn't going to do anything about it.

C'mon people. Lets get some standards back in our games!