Systema PTW Basic Info and FAQ

[mcguyver]

I will clue you in a bit here. The motor is not the only part of the PTW that would be affected if you submerged it in water, or allowed water to penetrate and stay within the motor. Or debris, conductive or not.

The PTW open frame motor is not high tech whatsoever, in fact, it is very low tech, and most of the motors I work on are between 10 to 1000 times more costly (yes, that is correct). Brushless motors are not used in modern airsoft guns, and there is a reason why.

It is due to size vs performance. Sme guns youmaynbe able to get away with it, but most you won't.

I have read the questions you have asked here on PTWs. The fact that you have asked them means that the basics behind this design you do not yet understand. Do with them as you wish, I have said my piece.

[SuperHog]

I may not be a PTW expert, but the PTW is just a redesign airsoft gun that Systema did many years ago to go beyond the AEG.

As for your comment on the motor/water. It works fine. After the brush break in the motor was dried with air and then motor spray that vaporizes without any residue, then blown again with air. The bearings are also relube.

I have put over 10 magazines through it and no issues or should I expect issues?

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

I may not be a PTW expert, but the PTW is just a redesign airsoft gun that Systema did many years ago to go beyond the AEG.

As for your comment on the motor/water. It works fine. After the brush break in the motor was dried with air and then motor spray that vaporizes without any residue, then blown again with air. The bearings are also relube.

I have put over 10 magazines through it and no issues or should I expect issues?

My biggest concern is not the water you get in your motor while you are seating your brushes. Hell, this is not a new procedure, guys have also used alcohol for decades in this fashion. My main concern in use is that the water you are going to get in there is not going to be in a uniform submersion, nor is it necesaarily going to drain uniformly. Nor is it going to be nice and clean.

The solution to this is to seal up grip. It doesn't have to be 100% air and water tight, that is an excersise in futility. But removing the majority of the possibilities of contaminants is much better than leaving the motor exposed to them. I have seen them fail due to water, as well as excessive contaminants in the brush hoods (be it dirt, brush dust, whatever).

You also have to be cogniscent that the control circuitry for that motor are looking for faults, and if it sees it, it will lock out your gun. A motor fault is the #1 cause, and it can happen even if the motor itself will run. Contaminants that can cause alterations to the inductive properties of the motor can be sensed. I have seen it occur with motors that eat up brushes, and the conductivity of the dust across the endbell is read by the EL-001.

So, which is worse? Heating of the motor, which is really only a massive issue when large quantities of rounds at higher FPS are expended (like 2500 rounds per hour with an M130, which I have done), or keeping debris out of the motor?

I vote keep debris out.

[SuperHog]

Used distilled water, not tap water.

I also re-trued the commutator with a diamond cutter on a comm lathe.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

Used distilled water, not tap water.

I also re-trued the commutator with a diamond cutter on a comm lathe.

I used to put the armature on a lathe and true the comm. I also used to solder the pole joints with silver solder after scraping away the Litzing, as relying on the folded copper tab was really silly. But that is not why the motors failed, and even after that perhaps 20% or more would not last.

I gave up on that 4 years ago.

[SuperHog]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

I used to put the armature on a lathe and true the comm. I also used to solder the pole joints with silver solder after scraping away the Litzing, as relying on the folded copper tab was really silly. But that is not why the motors failed, and even after that perhaps 20% or more would not last.

I gave up on that 4 years ago.

We weld. Brushed motors run hot enough to melt silver solder.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

We weld. Brushed motors run hot enough to melt silver solder.

They never did for me.

[ThunderCactus]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

We weld. Brushed motors run hot enough to melt silver solder.

uhhhh no. not these motors. the vast majority of us never run anything more than 11.1v (12.8v max) or run more than 14-18A through them. It's rare for them to even get hot enough to melt LEAD based solder.

And about heat, heat is far less detrimental to motor life than debris. And if you don't understand why then stop posting now because you clearly don't understand anything about how motors work lol
I can run my 'cheaply' made hand wound eagle force motor in my M249 to near hand-burning temperatures several times every time i use the gun. It's been through more high heat cycles than most vehicle engines over the last few YEARS, and because it's so well built it hasn't damaged it in the least. I've turned the comm pitch black from the amount of use, cleaned it up, still works like the day I got it.

It doesn't really matter how long you've used brushless motors in an RC application because honestly it has NOTHING to do with airsoft guns. We use brushed motors in a burst application. It's the difference between an F1 engine and a NASCAR engine.

[SuperHog]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

uhhhh no. not these motors. the vast majority of us never run anything more than 11.1v (12.8v max) or run more than 14-18A through them. It's rare for them to even get hot enough to melt LEAD based solder.

And about heat, heat is far less detrimental to motor life than debris. And if you don't understand why then stop posting now because you clearly don't understand anything about how motors work lol
I can run my 'cheaply' made hand wound eagle force motor in my M249 to near hand-burning temperatures several times every time i use the gun. It's been through more high heat cycles than most vehicle engines over the last few YEARS, and because it's so well built it hasn't damaged it in the least. I've turned the comm pitch black from the amount of use, cleaned it up, still works like the day I got it.

It doesn't really matter how long you've used brushless motors in an RC application because honestly it has NOTHING to do with airsoft guns. We use brushed motors in a burst application. It's the difference between an F1 engine and a NASCAR engine.

High heat is bad for the windings as well the magnets

You airsofters are funny group of people. If airsoft did not introduce NiMH, you still be using NiCad, and now you are all over Lipo. Of course with out proper voltage cut-off safety circuits. In the electronic world not just RC, voltage cut-off circuits exist for Lipo circuits. If and when airsoft introduces it, you will get excited because it is new technology to you.

If and when a PTW maker introduces a brushless motor to replace the aging brushed system, you will again embrace it like it is revolutionary for the airsoft market. I won't post anything further on this motor thing, because the evolution will happen just like the battery technology.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

High heat is bad for the windings as well the magnets

You airsofters are funny group of people. If airsoft did not introduce NiMH, you still be using NiCad, and now you are all over Lipo. Of course with out proper voltage cut-off safety circuits. In the electronic world not just RC, voltage cut-off circuits exist. If and when airsoft introduces it, you will get excited because it is new technology to you.

If and when a PTW maker introduces a brushless motor to replace the aging brushed system, you will again embrace it like it is revolutionary for the airsoft market. I won't post anything further on this motor thing, because the evolution will happen just like the battery technology.

I prefer NiCad, it is the superior chemistry across a wider temperature range, and it's discharge curve is superior to lipo. What is not superior is the weight, and the "memory" component is largely irrelevant for airsoft as 300 cycles is a rare event.

The PTW does have a low voltage cut-off, but that tends to not activate with constant voltage sources like lipo.

I doubt we will see brushless motors anytime soon. It requires additional circuitry and grossly larger size to make it impractical and undesirable in the grip of gun, or shoehorned into valuable stock real estate. Brushless motors have been around for a century, I have replaced ones installed in WWII airport beacons, so it is not some revolutionary thing.

[SuperHog]

I prefer NiCad also. You beat them hard and run them hard and as long as you discharge them before recharging them, NiCad lasts for years.

[ThunderCactus]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

High heat is bad for the windings as well the magnets

Yes, but I really doubt most AEG motors reach the temperatures you're referring to. And although PTW motors typically accumulate more heat, the operators aren't exactly using them as LMGs, so the actual heat buildup is very minimal.

[Azathoth]

PTW users tend to shoot longer strings of semi auto; Tapping semi repeatedly instead of running auto. Running the gun on Auto for three seconds is far better than spamming semi in terms of motor wear PTW or AEG. The voltage surges from spamming semi are far harmful than a auto cycle of a comparable length.

All of that being said, I have worn down AEG motors from excessive heat, haven't done that to a TW motor yet.

Speaking of NiCDs does anyone know where i can get a frame put onto the "new" NiCD that were released a few years back?

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

I like! Is that a PTW?

Yep...

[SuperHog]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

It's a bit of work, but once installed, it's pretty awesome:

It is not a bit of work, it is a lot of work. The plastic on these grips are durable, but also tough to grind.