See through guns and the death of "airsoft"

[pusangani]

that's why it should be mandatory, they can't play at ANY GAMES unless they go through it

[Doombringer]

There is this kind of certification for Rock Climbing, you need to take a 1-2 hour class, they show you all the safety rules, normal procedures, how to operate a belayer, etc... and then, you need to come back and show them that you retained the information by climbing once and your partner does the same and, if you do all of it safely with no external help, you get a card. You can't climb without your card and it's a 1-time thing. There is no canadian law about that, the climbing centers just requires it for their insurances.

[Duckman]

how many games have you been to that the host has the time to actually go over an attendance list? they shoudlnt have to. how many times have there been people not sign up and just show up? i'm not condemning those that just show up cus they cant commit simply because they just dont know until a few hours before if they can actually show or not but i woudlnt expect a host to have to resort to identifying everyone that shows up at a field. that'd be insane.

short of policing every persona at everygame i dont see how this would weed out the negative element other than booting them WHEN they get caught doing someting stupid. it'd be a never ending process for the hosts.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by Duckman

but i'd suggest just a no strike rule at games. those nubs that excercise a laps in judgement get the boot and be done with it. no second chances. briefings are generally fairly clear and to the point. game postings are typically very clear in terms of safety and the expectations of those attending. comply or just dont go. it's that simple. put the nubs on notice. if EVERY host was particularly anal about this and showed no mercy than the fools will sort themselves out or just get the hell out or better yet...just not show and disappear from our midst.

That's a bit of an overkill.

Very first person I shot in airsoft was a 4 round burst, 5' away, between the fence at old FR. I immediately realized my mistake and never did it again, without having to be booted off the field for it.

Everyone makes mistakes, we learn by making them. It's the chronic mistakes that people never learn from that are the problem.

[pusangani]

Duckman, you have a good point there

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by pusangani

that's why it should be mandatory, they can't play at ANY GAMES unless they go through it

Wouldn't that then just push those idiots that wouldn't care to learn to shooting each other in fields/parks/neighbourhoods, and possibly bringing negative media attention to the game?

[Duckman]

Originally Posted by The Saint

That's a bit of an overkill.

Very first person I shot in airsoft was a 4 round burst, 5' away, between the fence at old FR. I immediately realized my mistake and never did it again, without having to be booted off the field for it.

Everyone makes mistakes, we learn by making them. It's the chronic mistakes that people never learn from that are the problem.

that stuff happens on field. i understand that and i'm not suggesting that that sort of stuff be punished. you realized it in the moment. good for you. maturity, conscience...welcome attributes.

i mean the simple things like basic safety like BBD's and dry fire in no fire zones. and other examples of simple things are endless.

on field errors that can be correct with experience with a bit of help are fine. you're not gonna lose an eye like that. safe zone on the other hand should be enforced with extreme prejudice.

supermen and ktmt's that refuse to learn their lessons will end up having crankies and vets make them pay while on field. they'll be punished with loads and loads of continuous fire. that's just fun

you said it yourself...we use projectile weapons. everyone shoudl take them seriously.

[pusangani]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

Wouldn't that then just push those idiots that wouldn't care to learn to shooting each other in fields/parks/neighbourhoods, and possibly bringing negative media attention to the game?

there will always be idiots, we need to differentiate ourselves from them, if the media sees that we are an organized community that regulates its members then we have nothing to fear from the actions of a few monkeys

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by HGI

^^
I don't think you could set a price on it since it would very from field to field, some field owners are more greedy than others. Thought it shouldn't cost anything, you shouldn't have to pay to be told how to play a sport.

Hmm... what about, rock climbing, sky diving, scuba diving, auto racing, Motorcycle racing, Target shooting

all of these sports have mandatory regulated indoctrination courses before you can do it.

Have you ever wondered why?

Contrary to your perception its not a "cash grab" ( although there is money to be made conductng these courses) it is to ensure that the participants are properly prepared for the activity.

There is potential for injury and the venues conducting such activities would be NEGLIGENT to not provide basic prepatory instruction.

In addition such required courses weed out the mouthbreathers and boneheads that think they know it all already simply by virtue of wanting to do it. If it costs a bit of money as well .. it weeds out the people who would compromise your safety to save themselves a few dollars.

In short its a idiot filter... the mesh would not be small enough to screen out all the idiots .. but it would clear out some of them..

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Duckman

how many games have you been to that the host has the time to actually go over an attendance list? they shoudlnt have to. how many times have there been people not sign up and just show up? i'm not condemning those that just show up cus they cant commit simply because they just dont know until a few hours before if they can actually show or not but i woudlnt expect a host to have to resort to identifying everyone that shows up at a field. that'd be insane.

short of policing every persona at everygame i dont see how this would weed out the negative element other than booting them WHEN they get caught doing someting stupid. it'd be a never ending process for the hosts.

As hosts we should be doing a better job of knowing who is on the field and what their experience level is.. its in our best interest to know.

If you had to show ID when you register and this gets matched to the sign in sheet ... its not hard to confirm status.

[Ace12GA]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

Thanks , good post and speaks to the issue.. which is not about the gear or the guns .. but about the players.

Thanks, I only try to post when I actually have something constructive to say.

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

From the standpoint of the players... due to the lower cost to entry.. many of the new players have less commitment to the community .. or its traditions and standards and regulations.. the demographic of the player population shifts to be Novice heavy ... more players are new and there is more turn over in this population as guns are cheap enough and available enough that people will try out the activity with little desire to really get into it. More seasonsed players find it frustrating to go to games and find 1/3 to 1/2 of players with less than a season experience. Lots are generous with their time.. and will help new players out... but in some cases the volume of new players outstrips the ability of vets to provide that guidance.

I agree totally, and its not the sort of thing that's going to change much. I think it will always be a problem at times. Your idea of a crash course is great, but isn't this the sort of thing fields and games should already be doing?

When I run a game I have a 5 to 10 minute safety lecture, and I spend another 5 to 10 minutes explaining rules. When there are new people I spend extra time with them and make sure they're on my team for the first couple of games so I can keep an eye on them. I play and act as ref during games, warning players, or even ejecting them. Granted I run games with 8 to 16 players, it still applies to larger games. I have had games where over half the players are new, and those days are more challenging, but its the same deal. I scare the safety into them, and brand the rules into them.

Someone else posted a story about guys acting up in a safe zone. To me, that is a failure of the ref's, staff, or game organizer; it is also a failure of other more experienced players not speaking up. When you run a game, weather its a business, or a private affair on a farm, you are taking responsibility over the safety of the players, and the enforcing of rules to maintain that safety. Its not hard, it doesn't take long, and it works in my experience. Yes, you still have to take an active interest in the new people during game play, and you probably still have to remind them of the rules from time to time, but it works. I think if you start branding people as newbs who have to take a course on the game of airsoft, you are just widening the gap between new player, and elite player. Airsoft is going mainstream, and its going to hurt after over a decade of being underground.

I'm speaking of only safety and game conduct here, not game play or tactics. Those latter are things you learn on your feet usually. Just to be clear.

[Boche]

Originally Posted by Ace12GA

When I run a game I have a 5 to 10 minute safety lecture, and I spend another 5 to 10 minutes explaining rules. When there are new people I spend extra time with them and make sure they're on my team for the first couple of games so I can keep an eye on them.

To me, this sounds reasonable, and it can be done at every game. One thing I'd add to it though, is take the brand new noobs out onto the field before the game starts and shoot them. Not in a malicious way, but just to give them the sense of what to feel for and what to listen for when being shot at. Shoot'em in from far away and shoot'em closer up, and when they're walking and running. Might cut down on the typical 'noobs not calling their hits' complaint.

[pusangani]

Originally Posted by memel

To me, this sounds reasonable, and it can be done at every game. One thing I'd add to it though, is take the brand new noobs out onto the field before the game starts and shoot them. Not in a malicious way, but just to give them the sense of what to feel for and what to listen for when being shot at. Shoot'em in from far away and shoot'em closer up, and when they're walking and running. Might cut down on the typical 'noobs not calling their hits' complaint.

good idea, it will also help first timers get over their fear of getting shot for the first time, so they don't bunker down for the whole game

[Amos]

Originally Posted by ex

Is this Video Publicly available/for sale. I would love to have something like this at our fields disposal.

I don't think so, it was specifically made for their field and their house rules (which are different from those all around canada)

www.xtreme-tactics.com

You may be able to find some information by emailing them or calling them. Ask to speak with "Gord" he's the owner.

[Mikhail]

Originally Posted by Ace12GA

When I run a game I have a 5 to 10 minute safety lecture, and I spend another 5 to 10 minutes explaining rules. When there are new people I spend extra time with them and make sure they're on my team for the first couple of games so I can keep an eye on them. I play and act as ref during games, warning players, or even ejecting them. Granted I run games with 8 to 16 players, it still applies to larger games. I have had games where over half the players are new, and those days are more challenging, but its the same deal. I scare the safety into them, and brand the rules into them.

snip

I'm speaking of only safety and game conduct here, not game play or tactics. Those latter are things you learn on your feet usually. Just to be clear.

Having run a different combat sport for many years, this sort of thing starts to come natural at any game I have run or hosted...unless everyone there is people I have played with in the past, the automatic 'safety and rules' speel turns on. And like you said its a 15-25 minute run down max.

And usually vets and other not-new folks hang out for it as well, and general don't begrudge the time. I think I helps to know that the rules WERE stated again at the beginning of the game, and to KNOW that everyone heard and understood. Heck, often they will chime in with confirmations, and help out with the speel.

I just came back from a tactical (real steel) shotgun shoot run by our local CF Ranger RI, and guess what...EVERYTIME he runs a tactical range, there is the weapons familiarization and training speech...and it takes 15 minutes for him, tops. And no body grumps at him for here it.

Even other CF Vets.