What model are you working under?

[Oborous]

Hey Tommygun,

Forethought will definitely save you some money and grief here. Searches in the forum to see if a piece of kit is good will also help you out. Do realize that everyone has biases, what works for me, might not work for you; and for gear, I'm running all 'real' for the simple fact that I'm hard on my gear, I get some pretty extreme discounts or T&E the stuff, and I lurk the market places (and know what companies really do have a life-time guarentee/warranty).

Most of this is going to depend on where you're playing, what the rules are, and how the fields are setup. Do you have a minimum engagement distance and that's why you have to go secondary (Pistol), or when entering a building you can only use semi-auto and since your AEG is full-auto you can't use it there?

Also, although I'm discussing kit here, I'm trying to show my logic process behind this and how your gear supports your tactics

Originally Posted by Tommygun_ted

I'm in the prossess of choosing my kit, but im having some difficulty figuring out what i really need. i run an M249, so i dont have a need for mag pouches. ive got one mag that holds 2500 BB's.

Again, what are the rules in your area? Are you allowed to reload 'on the field' or only when respawning? Your M249 should accept STANAG 4179 magazine (i.e. M16 family of weapons mags), so if your box mag craps out on you, then you can still have some firepower. Yes, a 2nd box mag is expensive, but how expensive in comparison to your long-arm (long arm is your primary which is your M249), if you don't want to do a 2nd box mag, maybe a bunch of STANAG mags in a M249 box mag pouch (M249 box mag pouches generally hold 6 STANAG mags, so then you have some interchangeability). This is to keep you in the game and allow you to deal with errors.

Originally Posted by Tommygun_ted

for first line, basic first aid (just in case, could get a boo boo), my pistol and a few mags, i was thinking three, just in case i need to do some CQB, not too sure what an E&E kit is though?

Unless I play a pistols only game, I only carry the pistol mag in the GBB. How many shots do you actually need? You have a machinegun; if you're worried about your primary going down, then figure out what you need to keep it running.

E&E kit is escape and evasion kit (which is different than a survival kit, the recommendation following is actually a hybrid of an E&E kit and a survival kit); for airsoft, carry a compass, a timepiece (wristwatch or carabiner watch), whistle, and signalling mirror (the mirror is optional). In larger games you will need the compass, or even just to orientate to give better directions. Timepieces are important for timelines such as you have 30 minutes to find the target; or respawn time is 5 minutes, really important to be accurate for longer respawns. If the respawn is longer than 2 minutes, having a time piece will just save you getting a bad reputation for either coming out to early and 'cheating' or waiting around so long to make sure you have covered the time and then you're not supporting your team. Whistles are so very often overlooked; you're playing in brush, what happens if you get lost, fall and twist your ankle etc and your radio craps out (realize that water is the bane of radios, both for shorting it out and reducing your range, so if you hurt yourself, you really want to make sure people can find you).

Originally Posted by Tommygun_ted

second line, dont really need armor in airsoft i dont think, i want to save as much weight as possible, not sure what long-arm is, i have one 2500 round box mag for my SAW, so i dont need other mags on me, there too expensive for saw mags anyways, and i dont have grenades.

Armor, unless it has a game effect, is dumb in my opinion. If you've ever worn real armor, you know it's hot and heavy. Unless you have realistic weight plate to train with, fake plates are just a waste of time.

As for grenades, never underestimate the use of a well placed grenade. I really advocate everyone carrying a single grenade. Look up the rules in your area; must it be an Airsoft Innovations Tornado? (in which case buy the blue one; it's in a pouch so color doesn't matter there, and blue is rare in nature which allow you to find it easier) Or, contact Darklen (one of the supermods here) and ask about his Safety-nade, it's a blaze orange foam grenade with some shot in the middle for heft. You're using a machine gun; one of the best ways of taking you out is to lob a grenade into your position; can you return the favor because they're behind cover? Or for room clearing so you can then make an MG nest?

Originally Posted by Darklen

Originally Posted by Tommygun_ted

and third line would depend on the game, more would be required for longer games i assume? I also want to keep the F3 factor down as low as possible, i like going prone and using the bipod behind logs and other low cover. i guess my question is, whats practical for my set up? (Dont even own a sling yet :P)

Ghillie tog Once saw a MG with some pretty heavy camo, setting up at an oblique angle (ala WWI style), he'd just mow down a charge. The choice of gear (Ghillie + M249) combined with his tactics allowed him to have a fantastic kill ratio.


Machinegun specific sling with MASH hooks

You're carrying a heavy piece of gear there, that's pretty expensive. If you want to be a support gunner, be kind to yourself and buy a good sling. Too many people end up selling their MG because it's 'too heavy', a good sling will allow you to carry the MG with less stress, so you will move and agressively use the capabilities to your full advantage. I'm a big proponent of 2 point, double MASH hook slings for MG's. MASH hooks were designed for the heavy weapons that broke other attachment types.

As for the rest of your loadout, make sure you have: Water, Radio, kill rag, pouch for snacks (power bar or similar), map pocket (could be pouch for snacks also). Buy good boots, they prevent injuries and allow you to enjoy your time alot more.

Buy great goggles and seriously, goggles, not glasses. You are almost always prone, the target is your gun and your head, you're often around cover, so richottes are very common. You have one set of eyes, don't loose them. Buy great so they don't fog, if they have foam to keep the dust of Afganastan out, you can rip that off for better ventellation to reduce your fogging.

[Tommygun_ted]

Wow, thanks a lot, very informative i really appreciate the advice.

[Light.Cavalier]

For the odd person out there there is another model to work on
Insurgent: you are essentially similar to the Recce or Special forces but you arent wearing all sorts of pretty military gear.
It works and throws people for a loop though when you start pulling mags out of modified cargo pants pockets.

[Oborous]

Originally Posted by Light.Cavalier

For the odd person out there there is another model to work on
Insurgent: you are essentially similar to the Recce or Special forces but you arent wearing all sorts of pretty military gear.
It works and throws people for a loop though when you start pulling mags out of modified cargo pants pockets.

There are a few that I could have added... PSD (Personal Security Detail), Survivalist/Zombie Apocalypse (seriously), Gurrellia vs. Insurgent, or even a Covert Direct Action.

But, my logic was to have the major categories that have purposeful gear choices that modify your TTP's. Insurgents generally are working with crap gear, so it's whatever they can scrounge. You can't build a TTP set for a large group to work with, because do they even have the same primary weapon?

There are also some Models that could be used only for Airsoft Training purposes.

Try a Dog Soldier. Have a 5 meter rope/lanyard attached to the ground and fight some positional defense, see how long you last and see how you've picked your spot

Or an Apache Warrior, setup with two teams quite far apart, and there is a point in the middle that whomever reaches it first and has someone stay in it for a minute wins. See what people carry then.


Basically, I'm trying to have people realize that the person is 90% of the game, and most people only get a further 5% from their gear; the synergy of training and good gear allows them that last 5%

Oborous

[Light.Cavalier]

The statement that you cannot build TTPs for a large group that have nonstarndardized equipment and armament is rather odd. Since part of all of this is to adapt and overcome. Anyway what I was getting at is that I have organized and trained a group of 10 who play as insurgents (all the time). It is a viable style of play, and not just a simple side genre of milsim play. I would argue that gear increases efficiency but not necessarily effectiveness. That comes from training so where you are right in saying that a good team is the people, the gear, and the training. I would argue that 75% of it is the people, 20% the training, and 5% the gear. When you deviate from the prearranged load outs and TTPs the game meerly shifts in balance to be more player and teamwork focused. So I still maintain that while your other suggestions are just different loadaouts for the other types you already listed, the Irregular/Insurgent is another model all together. That is all.

[Oborous]

Originally Posted by Light.Cavalier

The statement that you cannot build TTPs for a large group that have nonstarndardized equipment and armament is rather odd. I would argue that 75% of it is the people, 20% the training, and 5% the gear.

What I was trying to get at is Insurgent does not have the consistency that a training cadre is going to have an easy/consistent time bringing them up to speed. Is your cadre going to have malfunction drills for every weapon that an Insurgent is going to be carrying? How many insurgents really have a formalized training plan to bring them up to speed?

This thread is trying to get people thinking about what they're carrying and why; and how they can maximize their function by training and appropriate loadouts. Airsofters generally don't have non-thrown indirect weapons available to them. How many reg Army guys feel comfortable operating without arty (assuming that they traing with that... recce is an exception, for example). So, with the lack of most of the heavy weapons options available, it ends up being direct fire from individual troopers; heck, even a technical or other crappy vehicle would be a great force multiplier for many games.

So, now you're carrying many magazines; there are numerous discussions here discussing how many mags to carry. Assuming you're not carrying high-caps or electrically wound magazines, it ends up being quite a few... People have claimed as high as twenty.

So, now you have a thick layer of magazines (assuming triple mag pouches)against your gut, say 4 inches deep with a torso depth of... 15 inches. You go prone and put your head down because someone is shooting at you; you're behind cover (12 inches high) and the guy is shooting at you from 100 feet (~33 yards). If you didnt' have any F3 factor, you're only sticking up 3 inches, so approximately 12 MOA (minute of angle)tall target; but with your triple mag pouches you're now 7 inches above cover or a 28 MOA tall target. In addition, you're carrying so many magazines that you can't carry a sidearm on your belt, and a dropleg is difficult due to the ergonomics of going around... so you mount the pistol to your chest, high up... what kind of sling are you carrying your primary on? When you drop your primary due to malfunction and a target is -right there-, are you going to be able to draw your pistol? Or was your pistol just covered by part of the sling.

That is the kind of thought process I'm trying to promote.

So, when you have a bunch of insurgents, say you have ten of them... a lee enfield, five kalashnakovs (two are AKM's, two are AK-74's, one AKS74U for the commander as a prestige item), a hunting shotgun, a CZ-58 and the crazy guy with an SMG and a bag of 'nades... that's the kind of crap you get when you're insurgents. People rely on battlefield pickup or what they had hanging on their wall. If you begin to organize and train, are you insurgents or irregulars, and if this continues, are you just crappy reg forces? With the example above, how much are your troops going to actually understand tactics? How much ammo is each trooper carrying here? They'res logistic issues, so how long can you sustain the fight, can the commander plan for a sustained fight? Has that lee-enfield been maintained, that you can do a couple hundred yard shot reliably, or is the barrel shot out? Because of Uncle stealing a goat 20 years ago, the two guys with the AKM's don't like each other, so they're not going to be a fire team... even though they use the same magazine. So, one of the AKM's pairs up with the CZ-58, same ammo and the mags do sorta fit... now in a firefight, the CZ-58 trooper borrows a mag from the AKM, is he going to realize that his bolt won't lock back when he pops off the last round? Or is he going to assume malfunction? Does the guy with the shotgun even have a sling for his gun? Does he have a bandoleer or is he just shoving shells into a pocket; is it whatever he had at home so he might get bird shot or slug when pulling stuff out.

Insurgent is -not- a model that you would work under. Any commander would try to instill some training, solve some logistics issues, and form those people into something that he could at least understand the capiabilities. If you're an airsofter, really you're dressing up as recce or very light infantry, but you are going to use tactics and work as a team. Insurgent isn't a model that a Commander would form up purposefully if they had any choice. It can be fun to play, but isn't being chosen due to it's effectiveness in a role.

How would you train the group above for room clearing? Could you use the same doctrine for training a different group of insurgents with different weapons? (What happens if the group of 10 -only- had shotguns and bolt action rifles? Would you be using the same tactics for the 2nd group for FIBUA?) Grenades are pesky things, especially when not cared for. How many insurgents hate the things because they just don't have the dedication to properly care for them? (So how many insurgents have seen someone killed by their own grenade detonating inappropriately) Or actually understanding the difference betwen cover and concealment, especially if you're tossing a 'nade; or how many would think a clay wall would stop the fragments?

Originally Posted by Light.Cavalier

I would argue that 75% of it is the people, 20% the training, and 5% the gear.

I need to know what you mean by 75% of it is the people. In a non-conscription military, you're almost always getting people who want to be there... that right off the bat puts some mind-set in, they're not being forced into it (and, I consider alot of insurgents to be 'forced', that maybe the village imam spoke about fighting infedels, so are you really there because you feel you could be a good soldier, or because you don't want to be austracized in a small village?). Then you have training, how many people are natural shots? The highest number I've heard is 2% of the population, everyone else gets trained up. How many rounds has your typical insurgent shot before their first battle? In comparison to how many rounds even the army cook has shot qualifying through basic?

Breaking down my breakdown from earlier, I'd say you have Mindset/heart/drive, training/skill/abilities, & gear. There is the requirement that you actually have a combative mindset to be a warrior, you need training to effectively use your gear. There are synergistic connections between the three.

Taking it further, now spreading beyond the individual, you have your external factors... these are those externalities that allow the individual to do more or less than an enemy that is the same as the individual without those external factors.

Does a tactical team (SWAT, HRT, etc.) expect to get into a two day long battle with an entrenched, driven opponent? Look at Mumbai and tell me if it really was the local law enforcement was effective there? Does the tactical officer plan on going prone (except the marksman), or is s/he going to be blitzing through the building to clear it and arrest the the target. So, the tactical officer has the external factor of knowing it's going to be short duration contact, with the intended outcome of non-leathally dealing with the target.

Does a PMC operate knowing that there is a huge logistics tail behind him, and that there is air support, artillery, and armored vehicles? Or does he do something to compensate for that lack, by carrying alot more ammo. If you're doing PSD, you're trying to get the target off the X, so mag dump and scoot. The PMC has the external factor of not having the same support as reg forces.

The regular army guy has the external factor of alot of other support structures.

The special forces guys have the external factor of more training, best equipment, and knowing their mission. Regular army will often be tasked with pretty generalized missions... what -could- happen, vs special forces being what -should- happen.

So, by working under a specific model you can figure out your training requirements and your gear requirements, and try to get that synergy...

(BTW, convince me, I have been wrong before, and will be wrong again... this long post is to work through if Insurgent is a "model" for what I was intending, and I'm still not convinced. I consider most 'irregulars' to fall under special forces model, look at "Rogers Rangers" as the foundational insparation for the 75th ranger regiment)

[Light.Cavalier]

My argument about the percentages will go first. The reason I say that its 75% the person and more on the training is that a whole bunch of motivated individuals working for the same objective who have never met before can be useful and effective, but train them under demanding circumstances and build comradely and you have a unit which achieves goals at a level greater than the sum of its parts. The thing is, is that you can take a group of not even very motivated people (and even conscripts) and with enough training and proper equipment you can turn them into an effective and lethal force. Although in all honesty a 20% discrepancy in our opinions is really more semantics than anything. Just to reiterate, it is my belief that training and proper leadership can overcome part of the personal component, that is all. Really what needs to be thrown into your breakdown is leadership. That is what bridges the individual the the training. You speak of motivation and drive etc. Those qualities all hinge on the leadership provided to the individual, and the perceived value of the training they receive. Therefore perhaps is should be looked at as the individuals natural abilities and motivations; coupled with their training as a group and as individuals; combined with their gear; and synergized through good leadership. (my apologies for changing my premise but it makes the most sense) Therefore you get a breakdown more along the lines of 70% individual skills, abilities and motivation, 15% training and teamwork, 10% leadership, and 5% gear. The individual brings what he has to the table and you are only as good as your weakest teammate. This is made up for in training so that everyone can reach a certain minimum standard so as to make your weakest better than the enemy's (or the enemy themselves), your gear makes up a small part in so far as it is necessary to complete goals. Then you add leadership, because the best men in the world, with the best training and the best kit, are still (without a leader) just a bunch of men going through drills and trying to make decisions on the fly with no direction. So I state that Personal Qualities + Teamwork +Gear + Leadership are what truly make an ideal team which is better than the sum of its parts.

Moving along. Now that you have a long definition I fully understand why you disagree with me. I guess the only real difference between SOF types and irregulars/insurgents/and guerrillas is motivation. While employing similar tactics and methodology, they are motivated by different things. Which will fundamentally change their mannerisms in battle. (With all due credit to your excellent explanation about kit load outs and misrolled soldier types) I would like to posit this. A unit of guerrilla's (say US trained) operating in Afghanistan is going to employ similar tactics to a Ranger unit or other such Special operations forces. (So in terms of loadout and training etc. they would be very similar) but there is one fundamental difference. If you are to take Milsim as a sort of acting (you pick a roll and you play it) you will find divergences in thought between the two ultimately similar groups. For example a modern soldier (say ranger) is going to do his best to avoid collateral damage and to preserve his own life and the lives of his teammates due to his motivation stemming from a contract and a patriotic obligation. In an asymmetric environment a freedom fighter/insurgent/whatever is going to use similar tactics and an attempt at similar kit to achieve a similar goal (destroy the enemy) but he will be much less wary of his own survival or of collateral damage due to his motivation stemming from ideology and zeal. Really upon deeper examination the Insurgent/Irregular is a subset of the Special forces, just poorly armed and operating under different pretense.
What I am getting at in the end is that any commander of guerrillas/insurgents/ whatever (from Mao through Che and onward) is going to attempt to arrange tactics etcetera. It just so happens that the current batch of insurgents which we are dealing with are not particularly well trained or evenly armed. But as I said the only real difference between well trained Guerrillas and SOF is motivation.
By the by Insurgent/Irregular/Guerrilla is all one big ball of the same tactics. I guess instead of kit and individual training I was thinking more about tactics and operations. Which would be very different from regular military. Because the regular military assumes it is superior.
Really where we do not see eye to eye is that an insurgent lacks the backing of a state. This does not mean that a commander of insurgents would not develop training and procedures, it just means that they might not adhere to the more ridgide structures that our armies cling to to this day. Again, I do not disagree about the issue of Irregulars/Insurgents being a subset of special forces, but I would point out that sometimes a commander has to take what he has and then develop procedure instead of the other way around. It happens. Tasking: Destroy enemy dismounted infantry company Available Resources: armoured recce squadron, 2 platoon infantry. On paper there is no way to do this, in reality the Coyote becomes a tank and you roll in.
Training and Leading irregulars is no different a problem. What you have to do is be creative make something work and go with it. Be irregular essentially.
I guess what all of this is trying to say is that every once in a while going outside the proverbial box is necessary and useful.
In light of what you sought to point out on this thread (which is to categorize TTPs and loadouts by purpose, utility, and necessity) I will concede that the Irregular/Insurgent model is more of a subset of Special ops to be looked at by the poor and ill equipped looking for a challenge. But I will note that to take the stance that Insurgents are no better than poorly trained untactical farmhands with only a semi fixed will to fight is a dangerous road to go down (and has led to the defeat of many commanders in the past)
My other note is that I look at the inverse of your second to last statement. Where you look at what you are seeking to do and therefore to find procedures and kit to do it with...I would say what is my mission, what do I have on hand, and how do those two go together. You would be surprised with what you come up with.

[Oborous]

Beautiful.

O.K., how is this for a statement, although gear does not define the soldiers effectiveness (which is more of motivation, training, & leadership) it does define (in a broad sense) his capabilities. If you don't have an anti-armor missile, as infantry, you're going to be hard pressed to take out an MBT; it can be done, but is hard and requires training, creativity, and usually alot of effort. However, poor gear can lower your effectiveness, no matter how good you are (i.e. crappy boots)

This conversation is certainly taking this thread a bit differently than I was expecting. As Fox111 stated in another thread in this section, he compares airsofters to the muj of the '80's fighting the Russians. They were farmers wanting to shoot infidels, so poorly trained, crap morale, didn't listen to orders. I was hoping that people would realize the inherent assumptions of kit when they're trying to make a 'look', and that the 'look' probably does not allow them to be effective as they could be, especially when they add """training""" from youtube or other sources from the net.

Oborous

[Light.Cavalier]

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Drow]

I like what you're saying, someone commented to me once "Your vest needs more pouches." I don't need very many pouches because I only carry 3 mags with me, just because you have lots of molle space available doesn't mean you need to fill it all up with stuff that would just get in the way.

[AngelusNex]

Originally Posted by Drow

I like what you're saying, someone commented to me once "Your vest needs more pouches." I don't need very many pouches because I only carry 3 mags with me, just because you have lots of molle space available doesn't mean you need to fill it all up with stuff that would just get in the way.

You sir are right, My ass load of pouches gets in the way all the time when i'm crawling through tight spaces (ie. small hole in bunker wall and the likes) BUT I like to carry that many mags as even though i tend to stick to semi, I like the ability to lay down high volume suppression fire when needed. Your chest rig setup depends 100% on what YOU need not what everybody else says.


That being said, 3 mags? Get more pouches on there :P

[IrishAce]

I served with the CF reserve as a cpl. and I would have to say my biggest problem is as my unit commander, I am running as your descriptions say a PMC kit. But being only infantry in the forces I am having a hard time getting what HQ is required to carry because again obiously is was a cpl and took recce. So my kit load was always way different and never had to worry about HQ equipment. I know in airsoft it is different, your commander can really go with any other squad type but I have enlightend my unit to Forces trainning and tactics. I do jump in to lead the deathtechs some times but I try to stay fairly moble around my different sectors untill they a confident enough to go it alone. I feel like a ping pong ball sometimes so having multi purpose abilities has helped. Its just a change from recce!

[The Chad]

Jermeys mom.......Except I wouldn't call her a model....and It's not exactly working.

[ThunderCactus]

Halfway between PMC and spec force, I work under the combat efficiency model.
Everything I have on me is necessary, light and efficiently stored.
Lots of primary ammo, pistol, 2 radios, M203 shells, hydrapack. All placed in such a manner that allows me to run REALLY fast, yet have really easy and fast access to everything.
It's all based on speed, faster reloading, faster transition to secondary, faster movement.

[The Chad]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Halfway between PMC and spec force, I work under the combat efficiency model.
Everything I have on me is necessary, light and efficiently stored.
Lots of primary ammo, pistol, 2 radios, M203 shells, hydrapack. All placed in such a manner that allows me to run REALLY fast, yet have really easy and fast access to everything.
It's all based on speed, faster reloading, faster transition to secondary, faster movement.

Hense "Thunder Cactus"...............XD

What's the Cactus thing, you listen to PLA radio?