New BB information. A must read.

[Danke]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

well... no, all it would take is field owners to require the use of Bio-bbs on their property.. and everyone would be scrambling to buy them

Don't give the folks behind that blog any ideas, they'll be on the phone to your HQ.

Over the last 12 hours that blogger/marketing rep/etc. has been banned from one other large and well know international mega-airsoft site.

Using some else's website to spread libelous rumors is generally frowned upon.

[shinobii]

Being a proponent for environmentally friendly airsoft alternative is not such a bad idea. Sure we Canadians are still primarily plastic based bb users, but we're a speck in the airsoft market. Now things are changing and airsoft is growing. It's only a matter of time before the same concerns being addressed around the world with poorly made bios and the use of plane old plastic bb's raises a spokian eyebrow here in Canada.

Nothing wrong with addressing a small problem before it becomes a big one. Aren't we all looking to make a good name for airsoft, or do we just prefer to rebel against change for the sake of doing it. These sort of things usually take care of themselves, and cooler heads above this forum will eventually make these rules for us anyway.

I'm not sure how many outdoor or indoor field operators will feel about being responsible for the equivalent of 10 of thousands of plastic bottles sitting in the ground or land fills.

For instance:
1 kg bag of plastic bb's = 64 500ml empty water bottles. That's not much ammunition. Multiply that by daily gaming. Not good.

Imagine that analogy being presented to the Ministry of Natural Resources.

Canada's no different to the rest of the world. We're just getting caught up. The fact that poorly made bio bb's are around makes things a little more complicated. It's a process. It takes time.

Originally Posted by Rock 'N' Roll Outlaw

It makes me laugh how whenever there is discussion of bio-bbs that theres always some random valiant knight in shining armor to the rescue of bio-bbs.

[Azathoth]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

well... no, all it would take is field owners to require the use of Bio-bbs on their property.. and everyone would be scrambling to buy them

It'a already that way in Japan, I can't ever recall going to an event in the last 7 years that allowed 'regular' BBs, The larger games in the US are now moving to Bio BB only.

[Danke]

You should forward your post to that blogger and suggest he starts to use positive images to promote the agenda instead of the whispering campaigns or other negative tactics.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Azathoth

It'a already that way in Japan, I can't ever recall going to an event in the last 7 years that allowed 'regular' BBs, The larger games in the US are now moving to Bio BB only.

It would be good then if the so called "bio-BBs" were actually biodegradeable .. so far all I can see is a "marketing gambit" to capture market share..

[Conker]

All I see is Scarecrow, somehow a concurrent of Biolval BBB, coming against Bioval, then a Bioval employee (or suspiciously convinced "fan"), then Shinobii, a Bioval BBB retailer and Canadian distributor sharing a "must-read" link attacking every other relativly trusted bio BB with doubtful "facts"...

I don't know who's right, and honestly I believe that it's about 50-50, but come on... I can't believe we are down to this.

I believe that Shinobii's last post is right, and that using bio BBs could help the sport with its image. But as there is no trusted, really neutral and comprehensive study done, all I can do is see these debates and facepalm out of despair.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Even if there are bio-degradeable BBs .. it's not like they are fertilizer or roses will spring up from every one.. every bb is still going to be depositing compounds and chemicals that were not there before ..

at least your standard plastic bb is pretty much inert.. and not likely to result in contamination

[m102404]

BioBB...non Biobb...Bioval, BBbastard, Madbull, KSC, etc, etc, etc...

Whatever...

Give me bags of stuff that shoot well and are priced appropriately, aside from that I could care less. Of all the gear, batteries, pot-metal parts, packaging and junk that surrounds airsoft (and the industry that it takes to build them and get them into our grubby little hands)...BBs are probably the least of any worries.

On the topic of decomposing plastics...most of them either just leach out chemicals and/or break down into smaller bits of plastics that are just visibly not offensive to our hippie-green eyes. It's probably (solely my own hair-brained opinion...no study to back it up) better if it's as inert as possible so it doesn't break down at all.

Not evironmentally better or worse than paintball (there...I said it)...just less messy on my gear.

[Duckman]

Originally Posted by m102404

BioBB...non Biobb...Bioval, BBbastard, Madbull, KSC, etc, etc, etc...

Whatever...

Give me bags of stuff that shoot well and are priced appropriately, aside from that I could care less. Of all the gear, batteries, pot-metal parts, packaging and junk that surrounds airsoft (and the industry that it takes to build them and get them into our grubby little hands)...BBs are probably the least of any worries.

On the topic of decomposing plastics...most of them either just leach out chemicals and/or break down into smaller bits of plastics that are just visibly not offensive to our hippie-green eyes. It's probably (solely my own hair-brained opinion...no study to back it up) better if it's as inert as possible so it doesn't break down at all.

Not evironmentally better or worse than paintball (there...I said it)...just less messy on my gear.

agreed. nothing we do will endear us to the tree hugging hippie soccer mom's (aka satan). so i'm with tys and all those other evil petroleum product flinging bastards out there that just want a fairly priced quality product that i can cast at high velocities at my friends.

[cbcsteve]

On a side note

For those thinking of retailing BBs

This is a grand example of the Canadian Consumer for BBs to keep in mind when choosing which products to market

I feel the same

Originally Posted by m102404

BioBB...non Biobb...Bioval, BBbastard, Madbull, KSC, etc, etc, etc...

Whatever...

Give me bags of stuff that shoot well and are priced appropriately, aside from that I could care less. Of all the gear, batteries, pot-metal parts, packaging and junk that surrounds airsoft (and the industry that it takes to build them and get them into our grubby little hands)...BBs are probably the least of any worries.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

well... no, all it would take is field owners to require the use of Bio-bbs on their property.. and everyone would be scrambling to buy them

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

It would be good then if the so called "bio-BBs" were actually biodegradeable .. so far all I can see is a "marketing gambit" to capture market share..

Originally Posted by Comanche

But as there is no trusted, really neutral and comprehensive study done, all I can do is see these debates and facepalm out of despair.

That about sums up what I was going to say. The market will buy and use what field owners permit and what players will use and economically accept.

"Studies" coming from people marketing products should always be scrutinized for messages that are consistent with endorsing the sales of a product, a prudent consumer should be aware of the conflict of interest such studies/papers etc have.

Comanche, your consternation over this debate is understandable and is really about BB vendors defending their products and turf. It provides insight into what we're thinking, but you should be a critical thinker and come to your own conclusion, even if that conclusion is, "both these assholes are full of shit and I am just going to shoot what I want" (which is a perfectly acceptable conclusion IMHO).

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

...at least your standard plastic bb is pretty much inert.. and not likely to result in contamination

This is the point I've been harping on for a while.

Originally Posted by shinobii

For instance:
1 kg bag of plastic bb's = 64 500ml empty water bottles. That's not much ammunition. Multiply that by daily gaming. Not good.

Imagine that analogy being presented to the Ministry of Natural Resources.

Conventional 'plastic' BBs are not made of PET (PolyEthylene Terephthalate), which is what waterbottles are made of, so the analogy isn`t entirely accurate (keep in mind, PET is preferred for food and consumable liquid packaging precisely because its resists biological breakdown and contaminate leeching into food products!). The major difference between a BIO BB and a non-BIO bb is really mostly breakdown time. And that has been the subject of some debate as well.

Any BB being used in Europe essentially does need to pass SVHC screening which covers a lot of bad chemicals (not all, but a lot) EC regulation no. 1907/2006 concerning the Registration, Evaluation, Authorization, and Restriction of Chemicals (REACH). The screening covers 15 substances of very high concern (SVHC) based on the candidate list published by European Chemicals Agency (ECHA). I am sure any BB maker worth their salt has gotten testing from TUV (a screening firm) to ensure they can export to the EU (as I have as well). So much of this discussion is really picking nits in my opinion as most BB makers have had to be diligent in their BB formulas, non-BIO as well as BIO BB based products.

[Conker]

Which is why I'll keep shooting the BBs I know work well, until good, proven and equally effective and accurate bio BBs, at a fair price, get on the market. Oh, and I forgot "safe" as so far there's still conflicting reports on the Bioval ones (with that breaking glass thing).

For now, I'll stick to my Bastards^^

[Amoki]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

It would be good then if the so called "bio-BBs" were actually biodegradeable .. so far all I can see is a "marketing gambit" to capture market share..

Do you even know what biodegradeable means without reaching for Wikipedia or a reference material of sorts?

Don't think so.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Amoki

Do you even know what biodegradeable means without reaching for Wikipedia or a reference material of sorts?

Don't think so.

Um yeah.. the chemical breakdown of a substance as a result of the action of the physiological environment...

(Damn... I knew that biology degree would come in handy some day Yay biochemistry )

the issue is "Biodegradable" has become as much a marketing term as "organic" it is meaninless if spouted by marketing people..

its not so much if any product is actually biodegradable ... the issue is if it can be called biodegradable.

PCBs are biodegradeable as well.... just not in a friendly way

[Amoki]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

Um yeah.. the chemical breakdown of a substance as a result of the action of the physiological environment...

the issue is "Biodegradable" has become as much a marketing term as "organic" it is meaninless if spouted by marketing people..

its not so much if any product is actually biodegradable ... the issue is if it can be called biodegradable.

PCBs are biodegradeable as well.... just not in a friendly way.

I think you have mistaken "biodegradable" for "degradable". Biodegradable material tends to refer to compounds that, once degraded via natural means, will turn into "friendly" organic compound which is then disposed of by bacteria etc.

I am not too sure about OXO bioplastic, but I am pretty sure lactic acid and its derivative (PLA shares structural features with lactic acid) can be degraded into bug food one way or another. In which case G&G BIO BB is correctly labled and advertised as biodegradable.

I am all for "indie science" and cynicism - airsoft is a sport which big money can be made after all and people always have to be vigilant about manufacturers trying to cash in without the goods to boot. But it is extremely annoying when people attempt to do what can only be described as "counter-knowledge" and "incredulous thinking".

(AND yay, good to know I didn't waste time doing biochemical engineering)