Dragonskin

[jordan7831]

Cheap enough for parents to send to their kids serving in Iraq, but ex*****ve enough that the goverment wont get them to the troops by 2010.

[Yeoman]

then why would the DOD come down with a ruling that no one is allowed to wear it then?
that can't be just because of a price tag.
look into it, these plates have failed, and in more then one batch made apparently.
Greg

[SC_SY]

I suspect they don't want to come out of the contract. That's the 'Lowest Bidder System' for you.

I wonder how the trauma is with the Dragonskin.

[Beefhammer]

No the dragon skin test models have not failed the tests, its all pollitics. The NIJ (nation institute for justice) has just passed the level 3+ dragonskin and has proven previous claims of inferriority wrong. They (us military H.P. white labs) used inferrior testing methods and botched the tests. Also the manufacturer of the standard interceptor is a major Bush/Republican campaign contributor, this is why the DOD will not let anybody wear it.

Trauma with the skin is suppost to be quite managable as the force is spread over a large area.

As for the steel core armor piercing question. Steel core has better armor defeating proporties than non cored ammo, but is still far off tungsten tipped or sabots. The steel core helps the bullet from deforming and loosing all its energy at the surface.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Yeoman

then why would the DOD come down with a ruling that no one is allowed to wear it then?
that can't be just because of a price tag.
look into it, these plates have failed, and in more then one batch made apparently.
Greg

All armour will fail, that's a mathematical certainty. The reason U.S. troops are forbidden from wearing it is:

1) The U.S. military has not yet tested it to be battle-ready (official version)

2) That they simply can't afford to outfit all their troops and will not allow troops to supply their own. Then it comes down to some guys are better protected than others because they have money. This leads to discrimination and favoritism that can't be allowed in a military that requires teamwork and morale.

[Yeoman]

a mathematical certainty yes, but to have more then one set of plates fail to even pass what it claims it will (ie bullet going through first round into the plates) is not what I call a mathematical certainty.
Greg

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Yeoman

then why would the DOD come down with a ruling that no one is allowed to wear it then?

It's the way of the military. I've been in lots of different units during my career. Some units have no problem with members using non-issued kit, so long as it's not a bright pink Hello Kitty rucksack. Some units are incredibly anal about non-issued kit. It depends where you're at. There's lots of good reasons in this thread as to why the DOD won't allow it. If I'm ever sent overseas, I'd pick up Dragonskin in a heartbeat. I rather enjoy the whole being alive thing.

[bean]

A lot of it comes down to this also. You are not covered with life insurance and all that jazz if your hit because it is not issued kit.

[DuffMan]

There's a whole thread on it at lightfighter. I wouldn't wear it.

[Mapcinq]

Originally Posted by Beefhammer

No the dragon skin test models have not failed the tests, its all pollitics. The NIJ (nation institute for justice) has just passed the level 3+ dragonskin and has proven previous claims of inferriority wrong. They (us military H.P. white labs) used inferrior testing methods and botched the tests. Also the manufacturer of the standard interceptor is a major Bush/Republican campaign contributor, this is why the DOD will not let anybody wear it. .

Ive read the same thing...

And in fact some of the higher ups in the military are now going to be receiving this armour... if i find the article again ill post it

[Yeoman]

ibby; it's the canadian army. it's a little different down where the yanks and rebs are
I've been in nothing but anal units, but I've managed to sneak by a thing or two. I wonder how they would feel if I pulled out an entire new chest right
Greg

[Groombug]

Originally Posted by Yeoman

a mathematical certainty yes, but to have more then one set of plates fail to even pass what it claims it will (ie bullet going through first round into the plates) is not what I call a mathematical certainty.
Greg

I thought that test was because they were using ammunition against which the plate was not rated.

Originally Posted by Ibby

If I'm ever sent overseas, I'd pick up Dragonskin in a heartbeat. I rather enjoy the whole being alive thing.

Dragon Skin will not protect you from VB/IED shrapnel, explosive concussion, or accelerant burn. It will also not protect you against headshots and femoral trauma, which I believe are the two leading causes of death from gunshot-related injuries in Iraq and Afghanistan presently.

[Mapcinq]

Originally Posted by Groombug

It will also not protect you against headshots and femoral trauma..

I dont know about that one...
Lol

[Beefhammer]

No, the leading causes of death in Iraq and Afghanistan concussive blunt force trauma from IED's i.e. legs and arms blown off or internal organ rupture and failure. You right about the 2nd one being femoral/organ (mainly liver and kidneys, where SAPI plates don’t cover) trauma.

The greatest benefit of Dragonskin is its ability to retain structure after multiple projectile impacts. There are very few multi hit stand alone level 3 plates and ever fewer level 4 plates out there. Many articles discussing Dragonskin also mention its robustness and ability to withstand impact, which is something SAPI plates are not very good at. Many soldiers complain of SAPI plates shattering if dropped or impacted.

If worn plate style i.e. 10x12 inserts with kidney and groin inserts as well, over a frag vest, then the previously mentioned problem of VB/IED shrapnel is minimilized.

I highly suggest people read both what Pinicle armor and the NIJ have to say about Dragonskin befor writing hearsay and assumptions. There are also several very good atricles from sources non-involved like Navyseals.com and I belive the washinton post.

[Groombug]

Originally Posted by Beefhammer

No, the leading causes of death in Iraq and Afghanistan concussive blunt force trauma from IED's i.e. legs and arms blown off or internal organ rupture and failure. You right about the 2nd one being femoral/organ (mainly liver and kidneys, where SAPI plates don’t cover) trauma.

The greatest benefit of Dragonskin is its ability to retain structure after multiple projectile impacts. There are very few multi hit stand alone level 3 plates and ever fewer level 4 plates out there. Many articles discussing Dragonskin also mention its robustness and ability to withstand impact, which is something SAPI plates are not very good at. Many soldiers complain of SAPI plates shattering if dropped or impacted.

If worn plate style i.e. 10x12 inserts with kidney and groin inserts as well, over a frag vest, then the previously mentioned problem of VB/IED shrapnel is minimilized.

I highly suggest people read both what Pinicle armor and the NIJ have to say about Dragonskin befor writing hearsay and assumptions. There are also several very good atricles from sources non-involved like Navyseals.com and I belive the washinton post.

Originally Posted by groombug

It will also not protect you against headshots and femoral trauma, which I believe are the two leading causes of death from gunshot-related injuries in Iraq and Afghanistan presently.

I was saying that gunshot trauma to the head and femoral (waist/upper legs) are the leading causes of death within the gunshot trauma category. That is to say, very few that are shot in armoured parts of the body, or have rounds impact armour, die from that particular injury alone. The point was made to imply that existing armour systems (III soft + IV plate) are sufficient protection INSOFAR as the armoured parts of the body, gaps notwithstanding.

The leading leading cause of death is, as you said, catastrophic amputation and/or concussive blast from IEDs.

I have not seen any tests with VB/IED shrapnel at realistic velocities - the previous one out of that air cannon was less than half the usual force of a real IED explosion. Whether Dragon Skin will be resistant to such penetration remains to be seen, and the 'scales' look eerily like shrapnel pieces themselves.

I will agree that from what I read, DS seems to offer a lot of improvements over the current armour package. In the perfect world, all U.S. soldiers would be running these. But logistical and political realities as they are, I don't see it happening any time soon.