First Airsoft Rifle Purchase! (PolarStar DMR?)

[PandaAirsoft]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

This is longer than I was hoping it would be...

That barrel looks like matrix is trying to fool people into thinking it has anything to do with prometheus/laylax. It's a marketing scam for a shitty barrel.
As far as anyone great guntech here is concerned, there are only 2 top end barrels to choose from; promtheus 6.03 and PDI 6.05
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Hmm that's pretty interesting, speaking of science, it's well known in fluid dynamics(air is fluid) that near the interface between a tube and flowing air is the most turbulent. Also, it would seem that the airflow in an airsoft barrel isn't laminar in the first place. Maybe the higher pressure has something to do with it? I don't really know to be honest, lol.

Why then a wider bore for an LMG? If I'm shooting 6000 rounds, wouldn't I want to conserve more air, rather than if I was shooting only 300 where air supply isn't a concern?


BTW a few days ago, someone from this forum graciously made me a pretty good offer for a PolarStar rifle for $725+shipping and we spoke a bit. He said he wanted to help out a new player and seemed like a very decent guy. After I accepted the offer, I asked him to send me a new photo of the rifle with the current date written on a piece of paper and to confirm his identity with a business email I found online when I searched his phone number. I didn't call him, because I wanted everything written down, just in case.

Anyways, he then responded by increasing the price to $800 and ignored my request for a current photo and confirmation of identity. I don't know what to think about this. I can't open the classifieds to see competing offers, his buy/sell history, or trader rating. Is increasing the price after a buyer has agreed on the price a common thing here? I find it unacceptable.

Any advice??

[ThunderCactus]

Take the time to get age verified on here, it can be a pain in the ass to get done, BUT it offers excellent buyer protection in that everyone is vetted, and usually has previous trader history. If you make a deal outside the system, there's nothing we can do about that. All used gun sales carry a risk, but the risk is minimized in the AV system.
I would highly recommend not pursuing that deal.

That's absolutely true about fluid dynamics. This is why the most important feature of an inner barrel is it's quality; to have the smoothest, most concentric, and straightest bore possible.
In terms of FIRST SHOT accuracy (the first few shots you'll put through a brand new clean barrel), material doesn't matter. Barrel could be carbon fiber, aluminum, plastic, whatever. As long as they have the same finish, concentricity and straightness, they'll all shoot the same.
In terms of performance over lifetime, stainless steel is king; doesn't corrode, and it's a hard material that won't scratch. Aluminum is too soft and even with a hard anodized coating can easily become scratched. Brass is great if you maintain it, but it can tarnish which leads to surface roughness, and it's inbetween aluminum and stainless for hardness, but you can still scratch it.

In AEG's, air supply obviously isn't an issue since you're compressing air on demand. So the only concern is whether or not you have enough volume. But widebores are better for LMG's because you don't lose as much accuracy due to barrel fouling over the number of shots fired.

So for example, a 6.03 barrel can begin to lose accuracy due to fouling (dust in the mags transferring to BBs, stuff picked up when loading mags, dust in the air, grease being aerosolized from the cylinder into the barrel, etc) in as few as 100 rounds. Largely dependent on how your gun is maintained and what BBs you use.
Sometimes you can go as many as 600-800 rounds without losing accuracy due to fouling.
But the fact is, at some point it WILL happen. Now that's not a big issue if you're not firing enough BBs to foul your barrel in a day. Or if you just don't care about the accuracy loss.
But if you're going to be running an LMG at a long game and are expecting to go through 4 bags of ammo, you're going to want to try and maintain accuracy as long as possible.
And yes, you do absolutely want accuracy on an LMG, because it's way easier to simulate inaccuracy on a sniper rifle by wobbling it about than it is to trying and get accuracy when you need it from an inaccurate gun.
So the widebore uses more air, but it will maintain accuracy better over a larger number of rounds.
Like many other things, it's a balancing act of several variables. And actually one of the very few things an AEG is more effective at than an HPA setup.

But I'd recommend just using an upgraded rifle, pick your shots, don't waste ammo if you don't have to. If you ever get into using a bolt action you'll learn that one precise BB than do the work of 50 imprecise BBs. I ran an LMG for a long time, but between back problems and running a bolt action, I don't see much point in running an LMG anymore.
You can suppress or redirect squads with just a single precise shot. And the best part is, that shot doesn't even necessarily have to hit anyone.

[PandaAirsoft]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Take the time to get age verified on here, it can be a pain in the ass to get done, BUT it offers excellent buyer protection in that everyone is vetted, and usually has previous trader history. If you make a deal outside the system, there's nothing we can do about that. All used gun sales carry a risk, but the risk is minimized in the AV system.
I would highly recommend not pursuing that deal.

That's absolutely true about fluid dynamics. This is why the most important feature of an inner barrel is it's quality; to have the smoothest, most concentric, and straightest bore possible.
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Well, he finally did reply me from his business email, so I'm a lot more confident that he's not a scammer. Also claims to know you personally. He's insisting on the increased $800 price. Though it still sounds like an acceptable offer from what he claims it's worth, I'm a little taken aback by the sudden backpedaling. I've purchased many things online, through eBay, craigslist, etc. but never in the open, outside of a system non-locally. I've never once experienced someone increasing the price on me after we've agreed. Please tell me it's not a normal thing in the airsoft community. I'd hate to get into this hobby and have to constantly deal with that.

Also wow, there's so many aspects of airsoft rifles I've never considered. Makes sense though, if this barrel fouling is a bigger problem than air supply for HPA. And to think I thought I knew a lot when I found out about hopup, and how the mechanics of BB's are completely different than of bullets.

Do barrels wear out and need to be replaced eventually then?

Yeah, I definitely like the idea of being sneaky and accurately picking out targets over a spray of support fire. Never shot one before but, bolt action seems kinda fun, though I'd still like the ability to spray down a location if I have to. Maybe I'll get one of those far in the future, haha

[T-Hell]

well as I said I know Frank - He ran the Manitoba Rangers her in winnipeg.

anywho

dude I never told you I would sell you the gun for 725
I was considering it and I did and rejected it

I wanted 800 US and 1000 Canadian

I offered you 800 Canadian thats 200 off my price

I sent you my list of parts from my previous orders on Evike with prices
you are getting 1200 USD in gun for 800 Canadian and you want to bitch about 75.00

REALLY

Perhaps you should go look in the classified Oh wait you can't Too bad
get age verified like I did many years ago then learn something about the value of some of the guns out there

seriously you want to get into a high end polarstar for 725 yea well when that happens I will sprout wings out my arse and fly to the moon

here is the deal

$800.00 plus shipping and if you want to pay with Pay Pal that is fine but you add 3% to the price for that

that is the deal

you are getting 1200 USD in gun here 2 complete matching uppers one long and one CQB and matching lower

hell of a great deal

take it or leave it totally

really I don't care man Money is not a motivator for me I work In IT so Money is the easy thing...

if you wanna deal fine if not don't waste my time

[T-Hell]

and totally the deal is not done till you agree and the money is on the way if someone else offered me 800 today I would take it unless your money is in my hand there is no guarantee of a sale

considering a deal and taking a deal are 2 very different things noob

[PandaAirsoft]

Originally Posted by T-Hell

and totally the deal is not done till you agree and the money is on the way if someone else offered me 800 today I would take it unless your money is in my hand there is no guarantee of a sale

considering a deal and taking a deal are 2 very different things noob

Woah dude, hey why are you suddenly giving me this attitude man?

I believe I've been nothing but respectful to you. You're the one that made the offer for $725 and I said I was going accept it right after I verify that the sale is legitimate. That's very reasonable. It's quite strange for someone to up the price after, which is why I questioned it.

There's no need for this to get all heated. We are just discussing a deal, and it would be great if we kept everything civil, please.

[T-Hell]

Ok fine

this is the situation. I saw that you wanted a polarstar in you original pose you talked about 800 - 1000

I offered you 800 and you have to admit after you see the parts list I sent you with prices you are getting a great deal.

then you started taking the price lower and I said I would think about it
meanwhile pursuing the sale.... you asked for more pictures (I guess 12+ pictures were not enough

I just got home so I took2 more pics and just emailed them to you... as you wanted with the date whatever

as you can see I have been on here for a long time if I was gonna be someone who screwed people then there would be a lot of negative feedback on me

I told you my Ebay ID where I have hundreds of 100% positive feedback as both a seller and buyer could have looked that one up

anyway I am not accepting 725 I consider that a low ball offer and until money changes hands I reserve that right as the seller

you right as the buyer is to either not buy or buy that is up to you...

as I said I am not motivated to sell to the first person...
I am more wanting to get this gun into someones hands that will use it... i prefer my Polarstar PDRc or my KC02 which runs on HPA as well

any who up to you

Buy or not the decision is yours to make
800 is the offer.... plus shipping and PayPal fees if you want to use PayPal I would suggest using PayPal if you want to go ahead it offers a level of protection for you and I

but that is your call...

[ThunderCactus]

Originally Posted by PandaAirsoft

Do barrels wear out and need to be replaced eventually then?

Some wear out faster than others, stainless steel tends to last longest with the least maintenance.
Brass only lasts a long time if you clean it
Some barrels may LOOK like stainless, but are in fact just coated nickel or teflon brass.
Teflon tends to wear off and flake. Nickel is pretty tough, but coatings aren't necessarily concentric since they're not generally processed after they're applied.

[PandaAirsoft]

So it seems like airsoft fields don't allow people changing PSI in game and consider it cheating, due to some people increasing FPS beyond the field regulations.

I've been thinking, if I have my rifle chrono'ed at DMR settings(Semi, High FPS) and I'm in close range from an enemy, is it acceptable to decrease PSI to a suitable level(Semi, Low FPS) for CQB in game? Or, is that still not allowed and be considered cheating?

Tournament locks and chronos seem quite easy to bypass. Would refs/players frown upon changing PSI in game, even though its the opposite of what tourney locks are to prevent?

If it's not allowed, how else could I turn a DMR into CQB friendly on the fly? I was thinking of switching to a mag of low weight BBs but, an article I read stated that switching to low weight BBs causes FPS to be too great and is painfully unsafe at short ranges. I'm not shooting myself to find out.

Maybe a foam suppressor with a "too small" inner diameter but, that would wear out and start to have less inhibitory effect over time, without warning.

Of course I could just engage with DMR settings but, being an outdoor field, normal settings at close range is already quite painful. I wouldn't want to cause people unnecessary pain. Surprisingly, Google doesn't have anything on this.
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T-Hell, it should be pretty much settled now so it doesn't really matter but, that's not true at all. I made a single low counter offer because I didn't really know what I would be buying. I never offered $725. You're the one that came up with price of $725. I had agreed to that $725. I couldn't see your feedback and I never received your ebay ID.

(T-Hell): "The absolute lowest I would ever consider is. 725."
(Panda): "Okay if the shipping is reasonable and everything checks out, I'll take it for $725."

Anyways, it doesn't matter anymore. Maybe it was a misunderstanding. Just wanted to clear it up. I look forward to testing it out.

[PandaAirsoft]

Actually, never mind. Thought about it some more.

Regulation states "max FPS/max energy" and says nothing about retaining the chrono'ed FPS/PSI/energy rating or bypassing tourney lock. Therefore as they are written, it is not against the rules to change FPS/PSI/energy, so long as the max FPS/max energy is not surpassed.

Yeah? Hopefully they see it that way as well.

[BenG]

Changing your fps during game for any reason would be frowned upon, and I and many other hosts would ask you not to return if you were to do that. if you change the weight of bb you dont change anything, its a simply relationship that most fail to understand Ek=0.5mv^2. if you increase bb weight you decrease the velocity but the impact energy remains the same similarly if you decrease bb weight your velocity will increase but the impact energy will be the same, when a game sets an fps limit what they are actually setting is an energy limit for example 420fps on .20g bbs is roughly 1.64j and off the top of my head I believe its 376fps on .25s and it continues to decrease. In any case even if what you are thinking were to be true it would be moronic to use lighter bbs for being a "DMR" as you will loose massive amounts of inertia which translates to a loss of range and accuracy that would massivly offset any gain in fps, if physics actually worked that way, which they dont so dont bother

Furthermore the benefit of say 420fps auto limit vs 450fps limit DMR /w .20g bbs is so little it really doesnt matter, for example my personal gun shooting at 0.97j (340ish fps with .20g bbs) is hitting roughly 250ft where as Thundercactus's m14 is shooting at roughly 415fps, an increase of nearly 100fps is only getting 280ft of range, 30 extra feet for a massive increase in muzzle energy, the difference between the DMR and the standard limit is so small it really wont matter in the end.

also a friendly reminder, no selling outside the classifieds

[Crowin]

[QUOTE=PandaAirsoft;1994678]So it seems like airsoft fields don't allow people changing PSI in game and consider it cheating, due to some people increasing FPS beyond the field regulations.

I've been thinking, if I have my rifle chrono'ed at DMR settings(Semi, High FPS) and I'm in close range from an enemy, is it acceptable to decrease PSI to a suitable level(Semi, Low FPS) for CQB in game? Or, is that still not allowed and be considered cheating?

Tournament locks and chronos seem quite easy to bypass. Would refs/players frown upon changing PSI in game, even though its the opposite of what tourney locks are to prevent?

If it's not allowed, how else could I turn a DMR into CQB friendly on the fly? I was thinking of switching to a mag of low weight BBs but, an article I read stated that switching to low weight BBs causes FPS to be too great and is painfully unsafe at short ranges. I'm not shooting myself to find out.

Maybe a foam suppressor with a "too small" inner diameter but, that would wear out and start to have less inhibitory effect over time, without warning.

Of course I could just engage with DMR settings but, being an outdoor field, normal settings at close range is already quite painful. I wouldn't want to cause people unnecessary pain. Surprisingly, Google doesn't have anything on this.
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Your lack of knowledge is scary. I would say an HPA gun would be beyond your skill and maturity level atm based on your lack of fundamental understanding about airsoft guns and how they operate. There are some great youtube videos that will explain and help you understand about these FPS, bb weight, Jules of energy and why fields have restrictions. Maybe a good rule of thumb would be if you cant upgrade your own gun from stock maybe you shouldn't be running a scary high powered HPA gun just yet.
A paintball gun can kill people if you increase the FPS over 300 because the energy of a 3gram paintball is much more than an 0.20gram arisoft bb.
Increase the FPS enough and you will cause injury, and its crazy easy todo with an HPA gun. Hence why fields are not happy with uneducated kids blasting people for the sake of some extra range.

[ThunderCactus]

I think his questions are important, and to be fair, we don't actually really say in the rules anywhere that once you chrono you can't modify your muzzle energy....
The important thing is he's open to learning, and his intent looks like he wants to prevent injury.

Your intentions are commendable, but the idea is that once your chrono, THAT is the muzzle energy you will be shooting for the duration of the game.
Game hosts will always ask you to re-chrono if you're changing muzzle energy between games. And they will sometimes spot check you in the field if you're running a GBBR (they're known to change muzzle energy as the temperature changes).

Major issue is, we just don't trust some people out there to be able to change their muzzle energy in game.
Although you may be on the level and have good intentions, it's an unfortunate fact that some people have that special blend of competitiveness and retardation that makes them want to break rules and run at super high fps to try and get the edge on others.

So if you think about it from the point of view of the game host; if someone is able to lower their fps after chrono, that means people are able to raise their fps after chrono. And that just defies the entire purpose of chronoing in the first place.


Neat sidefact though; firstly, muzzle energy is the limit, not fps. And changing BB weight in game can actually affect your muzzle energy by means of joule creep.
For example; my M24 (bolt action) shoots 1.6j with a .20 (420 on .20), but with the right parts I can make it shoot 2.7j on .36s(equivalent on 540fps on .20s). So if I went to a game and chrono'd my gun on .20s, they would think I didn't even need a minimum engagement distance.
Of course, it's ultimately up to me to understand how dangerous my gun is. I wouldn't want someone joule creeping up to 2.7j in CQB and shooting me with that lol
And in the end, if I'm cheating and hurt someone due to joule creeping, it's my responsibility, not the person running chrono. So be aware of joule creep as well, chrono your gun on the BB weight you'll be shooting, and then chrono on whatever BB weight the field wants you to chrono on.

[PandaAirsoft]

Sorry didn't reply earlier, was busy with things.

@BenG:
Really? You would ban someone from whatever you were hosting for taking actions not to hurt someone. What would you say? "You didn't shoot him at full power. It should have made him bleed at the range, and it didn't make him bleed. Get off my field!" And would the victim complain, "I expected that to hurt alot, but it didn't. Please ban"? I completely disagree with the way you would handle this.

Don't worry, I'm quite familiar with basic physics. I said to decrease BB weight to decrease energy due to the effect of joule creep as ThunderCactus references later in the thread. Losing range and accuracy is fine, since the purpose is for transitioning to close range. Also technically, it's not the impact energy(J) that does damage, it's the impact power(J/s). Like how a push does less damage than a punch with the same energy. So from that, the article which I read along time ago now stating very high fps with similar energy does more damage, seems to make sense. For projectiles which penetrate its target, the terminal ballistics is alot more complicated and involve a balance with momentum.

That 30 feet would be quite useful if the target is 30 feet or less out of range, especially if I'm in range of that target. It would be great if I could easily transition between a gun like yours and his. Also, I haven't sold anything.

@Crowin
Quite quick to jump to conclusions there, yeah? What exactly leads you to believe I have a scary lack of knowledge? Or, what have I said that's incorrect?

@ThunderCactus
Just to clarify, is the point of a chrono test at a field to find the muzzle energy you will be shooting for the duration of the game? Or, is the point of a chrono test to make sure the muzzle energy is within regulation for the duration of the game? I feel it makes the most sense that it's the latter. Correct me if I'm wrong. Additionally for GBB's, is the purpose of the spot check to make sure the muzzle energy is the same as before or is it to make sure the muzzle energy remains below the regulation?

Not exactly, if upstream pressure is constant, downstream pressure can still be decreased or then increased back to upstream pressure, though it can't ever be increased above the upstream pressure. Even though FPS can change, the upstream pressure sets a max FPS.

[ThunderCactus]

Chrono is done to ensure your gun is below the maximum muzzle energy limit. Spot check is to make sure you're still below the limits.
We don't like guns with adjustable fps, regardless of what the function is, because it represents another variable that we have to be aware of and accountable for.
I don't care if you're adjusting your muzzle energy between 1j and 1.6j in a game with a 1.6j limit, I don't want anyone changing their muzzle energy at all. Because frankly, I just don't trust people with that option.

The issue is not whether YOU are going to raise your muzzle energy over the limits in a game. The issue is that if we allow you to have an adjustable fps, then we have to allow everyone to have adjustable fps. And then someone is going to get the bright idea to joule creep the crap out of their gun or something and jack it up to 600fps in game and shoot through both of someone's cheeks by accident.

There's also the logistical problem of you having to keep multiple weights of ammo on you, changing in between, having to remember there's always 1 BB of the old weight left in your gun.


What Ben's talking about is that if you're adjusting fps at all, we have absolutely no guarantee what so ever that you, or anyone else doing it, isn't raising their guns above the limits. And so having an adjustable fps makes the whole chrono process completely irrelevant.
Rules exist by the lowest common denominator. If we were all good, trustworthy people who didn't want to hurt each other out there, we wouldn't need to chrono at all.

I know you just don't want to hurt people up close, BUT, you don't go to an airsoft game with a 1.6j limit expecting NOT to get shot in CQB at 1.6j. No one's going to get upset about it unless you're over-shooting them.
I've been playing for 12 years, and the 3 times someone's complained about getting shot by a hot gun and had it chrono'd, it was shooting 310, 330, and 360fps. I've played cqb at 420fps for a long time, it's really not so bad.
But if it's really a big concern for you, then just run your gun at 350fps. You won't lose much range coming down from 400 or 420fps.