MILSIM : Fixed role in units + complex unit structure.

[QKLee11]

Force Recon conducts TRG / SOP'S for our Team that is Tactically sound for CQB, Advance to Contact and Patrolling...our Team plays internationally and we are getting prepped for Operation Pines Plain (USA) this summer and Operation Cove (USA) this Fall

Will be doing CQB TRG at PRZ on Apr 6th and Field/Battlecraft/Ptl TRG 27th and 28th of April

[Zack The Ripper]

You guys open to having others join in for training? Just curious, wouldn't mind drillings some things.

[ShelledPants]

Originally Posted by ZackTheRipperC

You guys open to having others join in for training? Just curious, wouldn't mind drillings some things.

As an example, the ATQ courses at TTAC are really good foundations for CQB and get you in with some good people for outdoor training.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

The demand for training in the Airsoft community is relativly limited. Most people just are not interested in doing the work, all they want to do is shoot stuff.

TTAC3 has been successful in moving from a gaming focused facility to a training focused facility, we do a lot more events that are training focused than skirmishes now.

Most of the training is private for groups that have their own training goals and direction.

We do occasionaly offer courses for general public consumption.

In practice most training happens at the team level, like what Force Recon does for their members and what the Ghosts do for their members.

[Metalsynth]

We should agree at some point to have some sort of standardised basic knowledge bootcamp across canada like the sniper certification level.

How not to be useless when playing soldier ( in this section) has to be accepted as general basic knowledge.

Organisers can decide for themselves after if they wish to use or not that parameter as a way to filter out players.

Eventually, the public knowledge of this would grow and people might actually want to pass the course because they will feel like they are missing out on something so they might actually bother going to it to go to games where this is a parameter to enter.

At least this way, you would'nt have to breif ppl on what a peelback is on the fly and team leaders will be able to concentrate on actually relaying the co's orders while the players are checking their proper sectors without having to tell them to.

I've had various experiences over the years playing with and without my team at games and I've noticed that the people who do have that basic knowledge tend to react the same way I do say in a peelback or what ever. We cover each others ass and expect it in return whether it's running away or towards an objective. In other aspects, playing games without my team have proven to be some of the most frustrating experiences for reasons mentioned by other players before in this thread.

Makes perfect sence to watch the left side and have my AEG pointing the left side when the guy walking in front of me is looking on the right and having his AEG pointing to the right.

Now why is this not common and accepted knowledge?

We're starting doing a general basics bootcamp this year because this is the kind of thing I still see from 3-4 years veterans.

People giving bootcamps out there, keep giving them even if it is for 10 people. Knowledge has to get out there.

Airsoft players keep acting dumb because the majority acts dumb.

Monkey see, monkey do.

[Hectic]

That muskoka game was somewhat one sided we wer outnumbered 2 to 1 at least and during the night while yku guys wer sneakin round our camp siziing us up and planing your morning attac we wer not alloud to leave our camp to engage you or to scope out your set up or anything.
Im not complaining im just sayin thats the way the gake was layed out. I still had a blast. And getting woken up in my tent with a gun in my face was quite exciting lol.
Also yes i was on your team in the Z3 game and we did quite well for a small inexperienced group till we became infected now i crave brains for lunch lol

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

A little training can go a looong way,

at one of Zeon's zombie games I took a collection of noob, and first timers , sorted them into a 10 person section, numbered them, spent 15 minutes working through some very basic actions on contact.. and re-organization procedures.. and then dominated the field with them ( till we all got zombied.)

if everyone else on the field has no organization or leadership even a little of both can tip the balance.

At Werewolf in Muskoka in 2011 I fielded a light Company, 55 people .. but we had been training in preparation of the game for 6 months. Everyone knew their job, and did it , I had excellent platoon and squad leaders. and I had a group of players willing to go along with us and engage in the simulation.

We dug in , we patrolled .. we rehearsed expected actions for the next day under moonlight while our opponents slept. We sat in holes and peered into the night for an enemy we knew would not come. The next morning I moved the entire company to within 20 yards of the enemy position unseen, when we attacked, they were still sleeping, we took out many while they were still in their fartsacks. The rest were so demoralized by the trouncing they pretty much quit. They never really recovered

The only difference between my group and theirs was preparation, we spent months getting ready for that game, and on game day it showed. Lots of people say that game was "rigged" so the OPFOR would fail, this is utter nonsense. One side prepared the other treated the game like any other weekend skirmish. It's true that they did not have much of a chance, certainly not because of anything spectacular that I did, but because the players on my side of the equation committed to learning, training and preparing.
the week before that game I had 40 of the 55 players show up for a sand table exercise and communications exercise. That is commitment. I don't think the OPFOR did any of that.

Now, I'm pretty much into the WWII scene, because the players there love to train, and they want to do things as they were done. they want to dig in, they want to spend time in the Muck waiting for attacks that don't happen.
they even want to learn things they will never use at an airsoft game because it makes the experience more immersive

If you want Milsim.. real milsim, join a WWII unit, and get your kit together, there are several units in Ontario. ( a couple 'Nam units as well, those guys are cool as well )

[Zack The Ripper]

Thanks for the info, Shelled Pants and Brian.

[Reignman]

Good luck with trying to standardize things. I think that this is one of the big reasons people join teams because they want structure and competent people to play with. I think it would be impossible and not even viable to try and impose some sort of training for people to come certain games etc. When I hear this all I can think is "money grab."

I'm sure if you went to every team and looked at their SOP's etc, they wouldn't be the same. I think this is really cool because teams use what works for them and build on it.

More and more teams are forming. More and more people are realizing that if they are serious about playing and want structure, they will take a look at recognized teams in the community such as Ghosts, Force Recon, Danger Close and the list goes on.

Playing against better teams makes for better games. I don't think anyone want's to go to a game and completely mow down their opponent. As much fun as it is, I would much rather play against teams of the same caliber so we can learn.

I think that there are people heading in the right direction seeking out teams to learn more and become better. You will never have everyone be able to do this simply because of things such as lack of time to dedicate yourself, money among other things.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Hectic

That muskoka game was somewhat one sided we wer outnumbered 2 to 1 at least and during the night while yku guys wer sneakin round our camp siziing us up and planing your morning attac we wer not alloud to leave our camp to engage you or to scope out your set up or anything.
Im not complaining im just sayin thats the way the gake was layed out. I still had a blast. And getting woken up in my tent with a gun in my face was quite exciting lol.
Also yes i was on your team in the Z3 game and we did quite well for a small inexperienced group till we became infected now i crave brains for lunch lol

I am privy to the actual on the ground numbers for both sides JOTF outnumbered SOJ by 12 people , 6 were left in our position when we attacked, so in the attack SOJ was outnumbered by 6 people. Standard SOP is to outnumber 3 to 1 to attack a defensive position to be likley to have success.
Effectivly that is what happened because so many SOJ were not prepared to fight when the attack came in.

within 10 minutes we were mopping up objetives achieved,

What happened at that game was not about numbers, it was about being prepared.

We did deploy scouts into your position at night, the conditions provided by game control was that if they were caught or hit, they would be out for the game, no respawn.

I deployed a small unit of 8 to scout the routes in to the assault positions, and to map the defense, They achieved their objective with no casualties, and none captured, but they had a very intense night.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Reignman

Good luck with trying to standardize things. I think that this is one of the big reasons people join teams because they want structure and competent people to play with.

SNIP>

You will never have everyone be able to do this simply because of things such as lack of time to dedicate yourself, money among other things.

I agree most players are not all that interested in putting the work in to get better,
Imposing a "standard" is not viable.
The current system of periodic "noob days" seems to work well enough. That and the action of established teams to train their own members will get us to where we want to go.

Everyone has their own reasons why they participate in Airsoft, for some it's just about fun and exercise outdoors, and that is just fine.

For others it's more than that and they are willing and able to commit more resources to the endeavor.

[Metalsynth]

@Reignman

You've taken this from the wrong angle I think, take a look at the how not to be totally useless whil playing soldier .pdf and tell me it's not full of common sense?

This is what I mean about Basics standardization.

It's about aknowledging what is already known to be good practice as a whole that all players should know and showing it in real life so that they have a moment to think about what they are doing and how they are doing it and for what purpose under a third party view.

I've paid for two bootcamps and have had no regrets doing it even if there was very little I learned.

You're basically saying that I've invested in a lot cash in dvd's, books, courses, time and put some time on the range to test these skills and that I should agree to show them to you for free but the guy organizing skirmishes at 35$ a head that put zero effort in them is more deserving than I am.

We both organise, we both must pay field fees, yet I've put more time and money in it making VTAC barricades and have shot timers and proper targets than mr X who paid for a breifcase with flares attatched to a kitchen timer attatched to it?

There is something a miss here...

Why is training frowned upon?

Am I the only one who likes doing the tutorial before starting to play a video game?

[Reignman]

Sorry Metalsynth if that is how you took it. It was not my intent.

I'm sure your pdf is full of common sense however I was looking at it a little deeper than just basics. I was trying to get across in regards to standardization that it isn't viable due to how some things work for some but not others.

Training is not frowned upon. If it was there would be a lot of sad people.

I am not saying that anyone is more deserving than you either. No need to put words in my mouth.

Reading the tutorial may work for you, but everyone has a different style of learning. Some like to be told what to do, some like to get their hands dirty. Different strokes for different folks.

[QKLee11]

Some Military tactics don't comply to with MILSIM Airsoft because of characteristics of the weapon....I am a former Reservist SGT....I train Force Recon what is "Conducive to Airsoft" and apply it tactically to TRG. Most contacts happen in 30 metres minus...thats is usually when the assault starts and no one has actually won the Fire Fight, you have to adapt and overcome and take lessons learned and incorporated in future trg.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by QKLee11

Some Military tactics don't comply to with MILSIM Airsoft because of characteristics of the weapon....I am a former Reservist SGT....I train Force Recon what is "Conducive to Airsoft" and apply it tactically to TRG. Most contacts happen in 30 metres minus...thats is usually when the assault starts and no one has actually won the Fire Fight, you have to adapt and overcome and take lessons learned and incorporated in future trg.

Indeed, every Airsoft contact is an ambush,

[Covax]

Originally Posted by Metalsynth

You're basically saying that I've invested in a lot cash in dvd's, books, courses, time and put some time on the range to test these skills and that I should agree to show them to you for free but the guy organizing skirmishes at 35$ a head that put zero effort in them is more deserving than I am.

It’s your choice what you spend your time & money on, particularly a ‘decadent’ hobby like Airsoft (or, by comparison, golf). If you, or anyone, want to organize a game where only players who have passed your certification requirements can play… fine, that’s your prerogative. It’s no different than a ‘WWII guns only’ game or East vs West bloc game: felid owner and/or game organizer has the final say. If some person or organization wants to establish an ‘Airsoft league’ with its own standards and gear & rules… well it’s a lot of work, but if someone wants to go through the effort, sure. If you can pull in enough guys, that’s awesome… but good luck with that.

But to suggest that everyone has to conform to the same ‘basic standardization’ runs the risk of alienating a LOT of people from the game. Yes, by default if the dude paid his 35$ field fee he’s got the same rights as anyone else that paid that 35$ fee, no boot camp required.