G&P....are they that good???

[phloudernow]

wow, calling G&Ps the ferrari of AEGs is kinda going too far......The best AR style AEGs made out there atm in my opinion; is the VFC Series AEGs, not the E series but their Deluxe line. The Knights series and the Avalon Branded (OEM VFC) AEGs.

internally they seem to be similar imo since they both have issues obviously but i think VFC Externals trump G&P by far

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by wildcard

high fps and high ROF don't mix especially in a version 2 gearbox I don't care who has said they have seen it done or from what mystical format they mod it to

On the contrary, high fps and high RoF do mix and mix all the time, all over the world, and it's not magical at all. I hope to clarify on this a bit below...

First, the view that stock guns can't handle high fps and high RoF is absolute true, especially in the case of G&P guns which are sold with defective gears and yet are often short stroked or have extremely high torque motors mixed with high speed rotational velocity. I don't know what G&P's people are smoking, maybe they produced like a mountain of defective gears several years ago and haven't gotten rid of all of them yet

Second, the primary reason that the TM V2 design fails in high fps + high RoF is due to the fact that Tokyo Marui never designed this gearbox with today's RoFs and non-Japan velocities in mind. Pretty much everyone acknowledges this.

More on this later...

Before I get to that though, what most Canadian airsofters and ASC people in particular consider high RoF (25rps) and high velocity (400fps) is actually the middle of the road in terms of where the edge of the "what can be built to run reliably" spectrum lies at the moment.

The statement that "high fps and high ROF mix" is demonstrably false for the following reason: A large number of people have mastered this challenge and turned it into a repeatable process, one which is fairly scientific and in no way mystical.

Anybody here can build a 400fps/35rps gun and far far beyond, and if you meet and talk to a few guys on this forum such as lurkingnight or stealth and others who have been active in this topic lately, you'll realize it's really a simple formula and we're preaching the same basic mechanical adjustments over and over and over and are trying to distill it down to a simple set of steps people can follow. My experience in hearing from fellow tinkerers on the field and on the forums indicates we just haven't adequately disseminated the information/tutorials/knowledge to make this an easily-repeatable process for everyone yet, but I'm trying as hard as I can to share my experiences and help guys get their high-intensity setups rock solid. Some may disagree with the specs of these guns, but those that do can officially give up their license to engage in reasonable discussions of how to make AEGs have good trigger response, or how to make them last through winter play, etc. We're doing these mods for a variety of reasons, many of them good, and to characterize this as "dumb ass shit" is callous. You're asking people to set down their tools, turn off their passion for pushing the mechanical extremes, and spend more money. Seriously bro: FUCK that.

In broad strokes, here are Tokyo Marui's V2 design deficiencies:

- Pre-engagement of the sector gear with the piston due to the piston not being able to move fast enough.
- Incorrect angle of engagement with the piston and sector gear's pickup teeth, which should always be flat-face-on-flat-face but is instead in the default Tokyo Marui setup is a line of contact instead of a plane.
- Inadequate absorption of impact at the front of the gearbox, solved by systems like the STS or simply using sorbothane and correct cylinder-to-barrel volume matching. Most V2 gearboxes on the market now have extra material at the front of the cylinder window. Some manufacturers like G&G are radiusing the corners of the windows to increase the surface area where the stress occurs.
- Using the trigger contacts as a primary conduit of current from the battery to the motor. Easily solved with a MOSFET.
- One of my personal favourites, using the air seal nozzle as a mechanism to control BB input flow from the magazine. Defect is not limited to V2 but also V3 especially in the case of longer nozzles and weak tappet plate springs.

Each and every one of these is easily corrected with less money than a steak dinner in Toronto. Fix these issues, do some shimming, drink a beer and at the end of it you have a gearbox that can withstand high RoF and high fps. Sure, it takes time and attention to detail, but there's no need to call this mysticism or dumb. We're hobbyists for goodness sake.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by HKGhost

I hope I'm not bursting anyone's bubble, but I found most of not all the "New" G&P guns in north America to be all shit. Yes the externals are still nice, but the gearbox is just a POS. Almost all the G&P guns that has came across my bench in the last year has all the same issues. Bad gears, QC issues, upper and lower receivers not fitting into each other, and the list goes on. Ones that have came across the pond seems to be much better. This is just my experience and what I've seen lately. If you're gonna get a new G&P gun, make sure it's not from the US. It seems that's where the POS are coming from. Any other gundocs notice this?

Add to that list:

- mag catch alignment
- hopup unit burring or cast-size issues
- missing motors. Yep, G&P C8s that come with no motor! Not a joke!
- front-most receiver pin flying out during games due to loose upper/lower fit.
- unnecessarily fat 16 gauge wiring that gets chewed to shreds by the pinion gear as soon as it loosens up.
- snapping gear shafts
- stripping pistol grip cap screws
- motor adjustment screws that fly out (not every pistol grip on the market needs threadlock you know)
- strangely bent spring guides (this is a new one)
- singing springs (¡omfg!)
- shitty G&P M120 motors in setups that have M120-M140 springs in them (what's the expected service time on these guns, 3 days?).
- rusting delta rings
- 1-2mm gap between MOE pistol grip and gearbox surface, your motor grip screws cross a 1mm gap even when tightened. Makes pinion to bevel alignment an "adventure".

I would maybe add "soft pinion gears" to the list but I find that no matter how soft the pinion gear is, once you get your setup properly aligned and shimmed the pinions stop mushing and everything is cool.

All that said, their high end neo motors are decent if you are already getting one for free with the gun, their air seal nozzles are great, and the actual gearbox shells themselves are excellent and super solid and compatible with everything out there, the stock barrels are quite good, and the 8mm bearings aren't bad either. I'm also a big fan of the quality and fitment of their aftermarket metal bodies, which come with a lot of nice little extra bits and are a great value overall.

[HKGhost]

TBH, there's only so much mods you can do to prevent the gearbox from exploding in a high speed and high torque setup. Yea there's guns out there that can do both but they don't last. I've seen the 50-60 RPS at 400 FPS, and they can't last a season with regular use. Most of these are then downgraded either the FPS or ROF. You'll need to spend a lot of money to have the best of both worlds believe it or not. AOE, premature engagement and rounding the corners on the gearbox window are only good if the parts can withstand it. V2 gearbox have a built in flaw that's can't be easliy fixed without money dumped into it. So like what wildcat said, high ROF and high FPS don't mix well. Just my 2 cents

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by HKGhost

I've seen the 50-60 RPS at 400 FPS, and they can't last a season with regular use.

I would agree that 50-60rps is approaching the edge of what's reasonable both from a mechanical standpoint and a practical player standpoint. If I had a 60rps setup, I would keep it on semi. Once you throw out the ridiculous uselessness of firehosing that many BBs per second, the one super attractive aspect left over is the snappy trigger response.

That's my official excuse from here on in guys

Originally Posted by HKGhost

Most of these are then downgraded either the FPS or ROF. You'll need to spend a lot of money to have the best of both worlds believe it or not.

Well, since we're talking upgrading G&Ps here, it's down to only a few things. Sorbothane, a strong gearset, a metal rack piston, a pack of shims and a MOSFET will run you a total of between $60 and $90 at Stealth's store (choosing between the Core gearset and the Lonex gearset is what changes the price range). You can run a G&P C8 at 35rps between 400-420fps for an almost-every weekend year of play with that setup, no problem.

I'll happily admit it's expensive if you consider tools like a Dremel and a workdesk (or even gun doctor time, which is fair if you don't have the time/skills) to be part of the cost. Not everyone has these things.

[HKGhost]

Yea, I'm not talking about 40 or less RPS. If it's less, then its not a problem. You can build a 30-40 RPS at around 370 FPS and have it run reliable. It's when you go pass that point that money will play a factor. I'm at 37 RPS at 330 FPS in my DSG and it's fine. Runs all day without a sweat. But I know once I bump that up either in FPS or ROF, I'll be opening my gearbox much more often and my gun will cry and cry. No point in a hose gun as you'll just waste bbs shooting air.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by HKGhost

Yea, I'm not talking about 40 or less RPS. If it's less, then its not a problem. You can build a 30-40 RPS at around 370 FPS and have it run reliable. It's when you go pass that point that money will play a factor. I'm at 37 RPS at 330 FPS in my DSG and it's fine. Runs all day without a sweat. But I know once I bump that up either in FPS or ROF, I'll be opening my gearbox much more often and my gun will cry and cry. No point in a hose gun as you'll just waste bbs shooting air.

Ah, I think we're in violent agreement here then.

Most of these G&Ps and KAs and such, even with "import springs" will hit about 35-40rps if you stick 13:1s and an 11.1 in them. I think that's a straight up danger zone for every single stock gun out there for a number of reasons (related to the TM pain points above). It is definitely what I'd consider high RoF+rps for the purposes of this thread and also what most players consider the upper range of what's reasonable and useful on the field.

I might as well give my answer for the question posed by the thread topic: G&Ps are quite workable if you are yourself or have access to a gun doctor, but probably not that great if you're a newbie and are afraid of working on guns.

[nstahl.19]

Beautiful on the outside, ugly on the inside. Personally, I love 'em!

[gilps03]

I have a G&P C8 and so far so good (only had it for about a month and have just been target shooting, messing around). In order to ensure reliability, what would I need to get done by a gun doc? How much can I expect to pay? I'm just running 7.4 lipos

[Shaner]

I'm also running that battery...so far, so good.
I bought the M4 MRP.

Originally Posted by gilps03

I have a G&P C8 and so far so good (only had it for about a month and have just been target shooting, messing around). In order to ensure reliability, what would I need to get done by a gun doc? How much can I expect to pay? I'm just running 7.4 lipos

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by MaciekA

Add to that list:

- mag catch alignment
- hopup unit burring or cast-size issues
- missing motors. Yep, G&P C8s that come with no motor! Not a joke!
- front-most receiver pin flying out during games due to loose upper/lower fit.
- unnecessarily fat 16 gauge wiring that gets chewed to shreds by the pinion gear as soon as it loosens up.
- snapping gear shafts
- stripping pistol grip cap screws
- motor adjustment screws that fly out (not every pistol grip on the market needs threadlock you know)
- strangely bent spring guides (this is a new one)
- singing springs (¡omfg!)
- shitty G&P M120 motors in setups that have M120-M140 springs in them (what's the expected service time on these guns, 3 days?).
- rusting delta rings
- 1-2mm gap between MOE pistol grip and gearbox surface, your motor grip screws cross a 1mm gap even when tightened. Makes pinion to bevel alignment an "adventure".

I would maybe add "soft pinion gears" to the list but I find that no matter how soft the pinion gear is, once you get your setup properly aligned and shimmed the pinions stop mushing and everything is cool.

All that said, their high end neo motors are decent if you are already getting one for free with the gun, their air seal nozzles are great, and the actual gearbox shells themselves are excellent and super solid and compatible with everything out there, the stock barrels are quite good, and the 8mm bearings aren't bad either. I'm also a big fan of the quality and fitment of their aftermarket metal bodies, which come with a lot of nice little extra bits and are a great value overall.

As it already been stated before the G&P from U.S is definitely crap compared to the ones fresh off the boat from HK case in point the Stoner MK rifle my finish is completely different from a buddy of mine that got it from AirsoftGI even the color was off

Originally Posted by HKGhost

TBH, there's only so much mods you can do to prevent the gearbox from exploding in a high speed and high torque setup. Yea there's guns out there that can do both but they don't last. I've seen the 50-60 RPS at 400 FPS, and they can't last a season with regular use. Most of these are then downgraded either the FPS or ROF. You'll need to spend a lot of money to have the best of both worlds believe it or not. AOE, premature engagement and rounding the corners on the gearbox window are only good if the parts can withstand it. V2 gearbox have a built in flaw that's can't be easliy fixed without money dumped into it. So like what wildcat said, high ROF and high FPS don't mix well. Just my 2 cents

That is exactly what i mean

Originally Posted by MaciekA

On the contrary, high fps and high RoF do mix and mix all the time, all over the world, and it's not magical at all. I hope to clarify on this a bit below...

First, the view that stock guns can't handle high fps and high RoF is absolute true, especially in the case of G&P guns which are sold with defective gears and yet are often short stroked or have extremely high torque motors mixed with high speed rotational velocity. I don't know what G&P's people are smoking, maybe they produced like a mountain of defective gears several years ago and haven't gotten rid of all of them yet

Second, the primary reason that the TM V2 design fails in high fps + high RoF is due to the fact that Tokyo Marui never designed this gearbox with today's RoFs and non-Japan velocities in mind. Pretty much everyone acknowledges this.

More on this later...

Before I get to that though, what most Canadian airsofters and ASC people in particular consider high RoF (25rps) and high velocity (400fps) is actually the middle of the road in terms of where the edge of the "what can be built to run reliably" spectrum lies at the moment.

The statement that "high fps and high ROF mix" is demonstrably false for the following reason: A large number of people have mastered this challenge and turned it into a repeatable process, one which is fairly scientific and in no way mystical.

Anybody here can build a 400fps/35rps gun and far far beyond, and if you meet and talk to a few guys on this forum such as lurkingnight or stealth and others who have been active in this topic lately, you'll realize it's really a simple formula and we're preaching the same basic mechanical adjustments over and over and over and are trying to distill it down to a simple set of steps people can follow. My experience in hearing from fellow tinkerers on the field and on the forums indicates we just haven't adequately disseminated the information/tutorials/knowledge to make this an easily-repeatable process for everyone yet, but I'm trying as hard as I can to share my experiences and help guys get their high-intensity setups rock solid. Some may disagree with the specs of these guns, but those that do can officially give up their license to engage in reasonable discussions of how to make AEGs have good trigger response, or how to make them last through winter play, etc. We're doing these mods for a variety of reasons, many of them good, and to characterize this as "dumb ass shit" is callous. You're asking people to set down their tools, turn off their passion for pushing the mechanical extremes, and spend more money. Seriously bro: FUCK that.

In broad strokes, here are Tokyo Marui's V2 design deficiencies:

- Pre-engagement of the sector gear with the piston due to the piston not being able to move fast enough.
- Incorrect angle of engagement with the piston and sector gear's pickup teeth, which should always be flat-face-on-flat-face but is instead in the default Tokyo Marui setup is a line of contact instead of a plane.
- Inadequate absorption of impact at the front of the gearbox, solved by systems like the STS or simply using sorbothane and correct cylinder-to-barrel volume matching. Most V2 gearboxes on the market now have extra material at the front of the cylinder window. Some manufacturers like G&G are radiusing the corners of the windows to increase the surface area where the stress occurs.
- Using the trigger contacts as a primary conduit of current from the battery to the motor. Easily solved with a MOSFET.
- One of my personal favourites, using the air seal nozzle as a mechanism to control BB input flow from the magazine. Defect is not limited to V2 but also V3 especially in the case of longer nozzles and weak tappet plate springs.

Each and every one of these is easily corrected with less money than a steak dinner in Toronto. Fix these issues, do some shimming, drink a beer and at the end of it you have a gearbox that can withstand high RoF and high fps. Sure, it takes time and attention to detail, but there's no need to call this mysticism or dumb. We're hobbyists for goodness sake.

I think you need to chill out and not get so worked up here, the ones I'm talking about are the so called mag ticklers who played the speedball version of airsoft that utilize 40+rps, at 400fps and if you say that a 400+fps with high ROF can be achieved with a Souped up V2 I would like to see one because in my 20+years the only thing that I find after countless of tinkering the safest level to ensured tehe reliability and longevity of a V2 box is around 370-380 anything more than that with todays high current battery set up I'll be surprised that it will last more than half a season and just a little history lesson SORBO pad idea was done before SORBO pad was in existence by Wilson from SD-Unit he was teh first one I see to place a small cushion felt on a cylinder head to minimize teh impact force from using a PDI 300% spring on his SG1 (yes we use to play with 450+fps limits. I can proved this is the set up I have on my TM HK51 that I have since 91, properly shimmed, upgraded with probably the best combination of parts for a V2.
Now back on topic For a nub with little or no experience with tinkering the best bet for an upgrade is still a prebuild mech box from either Lonex or Modify if they want something a bit more extreme then why not go to a remotely external line system like Polarstar.

We are all hobbyist but unless you have lots of spare time to tinker around, I would rather buy something already done and spend most of my time on the field instead at home tinkering. also just a FYI all that stuff you quote about Marui V2, Most of us have figured that shit out in the late 90's when we are all playing HK style maybe a little bit on this later on but boy am I glad that shit part of Canadian airsoft is over

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by MaciekA

Ah, I think we're in violent agreement here then.

Most of these G&Ps and KAs and such, even with "import springs" will hit about 35-40rps if you stick 13:1s and an 11.1 in them. I think that's a straight up danger zone for every single stock gun out there for a number of reasons (related to the TM pain points above). It is definitely what I'd consider high RoF+rps for the purposes of this thread and also what most players consider the upper range of what's reasonable and useful on the field.

This is true but the thing that bugs me the most is when retailers or players who continue to give shitty advice to noobs about how these guns are LiPO ready and sell them a 12V 30C battery and then when their box get all smashed up they bitch on here on how the guns are crap when in fact it was user error and bad advice.

*The guy that I saw shooting at UA was using a brand spanking new VFC that sounded like a damn mini gun he was showing off to his budy on how his VFC was faster than a PTW and it function the same because of all the electronic upgrade unfortunately it never made it to teh game because A) it was shooting 440fps and it never pass the testing stage (he blew his mechbox)

[m102404]

Originally Posted by gilps03

I have a G&P C8 and so far so good (only had it for about a month and have just been target shooting, messing around). In order to ensure reliability, what would I need to get done by a gun doc? How much can I expect to pay? I'm just running 7.4 lipos

This has been one of the oldest standby sayings in ASC....

If your gun is working, run it until it stops working. Then if your not inclined to sort it out yourself, find a local reputable gun doc and get it sorted out. You may find that it lasts for a long, long while.

There's a lot of time, money and effort you (or someone you pay to do it) can spend to "ensure" reliability...and it can be improved, but it cannot be guaranteed. Anyone who says something along the lines of that is full of shit. AEGs will eventually crap out, for a multitude of reasons. Might be a bad part, might be a half assed setup, might be a bad jam...whatever.

And before some chucklehead says, "but my build has gone through xxx,xxx of rounds and is still perfect"....that's nice. Everyone has had a couple of guns do that...I've even had crap guns do that with nothing more than a clean up and a reshim. The only thing I'd say about those guys is that I'd "guarantee" that NOT everyone of their builds have made it to those numbers.

Reliable and dependable...yours is already there. It's worked properly every time you've fully charged your battery, loaded up quality BBs and not treated it like a fantasy-inspired Vulcan cannon? That's reliable enough.

[wind_comm]

Originally Posted by wildcard

40+rps, at 400fps and if you say that a 400+fps with high ROF can be achieved with a Souped up V2 I would like to see one because in my 20+years the only thing that I find after countless of tinkering the safest level to ensured tehe reliability and longevity of a V2 box is around 370-380 anything more than that with (etc etc etc)

50rps@450fps - YouTube

I'm pretty sure his build will last longer than any PTW as well =)

he also did 700@35, but the springs wore out too quickly and wouldn't hold 700fps.


my personal M4 shoots at 420-ish fps and 30-ish rps, and it's still a work in progress.
as is, I could probably run down every battery I have (including my 11.1v 40c (50 burst) battery _AND_ my 9.6v 5000mah battery) and there would be next to no wear on anything.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by wildcard

just a little history lesson SORBO pad idea was done before SORBO pad was in existence by Wilson from SD-Unit he was teh first one I see to place a small cushion felt on a cylinder head to minimize teh impact force from using a PDI 300% spring on his SG1 (yes we use to play with 450+fps limits. I can proved this is the set up I have on my TM HK51 that I have since 91, properly shimmed, upgraded with probably the best combination of parts for a V2.

Very cool. I'd love to see some pictures / hear some more stories about "old school" solutions like these.

Originally Posted by wildcard

Now back on topic For a nub with little or no experience with tinkering the best bet for an upgrade is still a prebuild mech box from either Lonex or Modify if they want something a bit more extreme then why not go to a remotely external line system like Polarstar.

After reviewing it myself, I'm starting to think that the Lonex gearbox is not only good for newbs but also lazy techs like myself. You're basically getting a gearbox that is already loaded with aftermarket upgrade parts. It is however super expensive in terms of dollars. I still think it is a good value though...

Originally Posted by wildcard

We are all hobbyist but unless you have lots of spare time to tinker around, I would rather buy something already done and spend most of my time on the field instead at home tinkering. also just a FYI all that stuff you quote about Marui V2, Most of us have figured that shit out in the late 90's when we are all playing HK style maybe a little bit on this later on but boy am I glad that shit part of Canadian airsoft is over

Agreed. I don't have the perspective of history that you have, but I'm interested in seeing what happens next, i.e. whether we'll see companies like G&P actually adopt more of the solutions that are being used by techs and such in the field to improve durability and reliability. The only two "community" solutions I've personally noticed taken up by airsoft manufacturers (so far) are removal of the second tooth of the piston and the cylinder window radiusing by G&G.

KWA has been big on the marketing bit claiming their guns are "lipo ready" which is essentially a high-RoF, high-discharge, high-reliability claim.. However, from what I have seen they're not correcting for AoE, not using MOSFETs, or any of that stuff. This is annoying, especially since the mag-tickling masses that you refer to seem to be snapping this sort of product up and thinking they're good to go. I'd really like to see some more hardass testing and judgement laid down by the airsoft review crowd...