Year Of The GBBR....or just a stinky smell that's passing through...

[m102404]

I do get the point of upgrading a low end gun and trying to turn it into something decent....I really do. But there are limits.

....these AGM M4 GBBR's are a piece of shit. Sloppy and loose do not even begin describe the overall fit and details of these things.

Even upgraded with extremely nice internals...they're still a lousy build. If you put $200-500 into one of these expecting to turn it into a tight world-beater...you've wasted your money. Maybe...just maybe...if you could strip off the front end, back end, and 90% of the internals...it might be worth a couple of bucks to get the receiver and start a new build from scratch (but even then there's a fair bit of play with the receiver). It's worth $100-150-200...nothing more.

They are certainly a bit less complicated than the WE...but the workings are almost toy-ish. The racking, chambering and "feel" of it is toy-ish. Recoil is ok...but probably because they have a horribly noisy very weak spring in the stock tube. What a twanging racket that thing makes.

Total number of rounds through it before it broke...70. The rear end of the nozzle assembly/body shattered.

The mag's already been stripped, seals soaked and reassembled because it sprung a leak. The fill valve is an utter joke. A mag that weighs .8 of a KG!!! with 9 pins and 9+ parts!?! WTF?!?

The WE AWSS is to the AGM M4 as a TM GBB is to a springer.

DO NOT waste your time nor your money on this model. In the quest to test out new things sometimes you win and sometimes you loose (time and money)....I rolled a snake eyes on this one. I'm going to keep at it to see if there's something that can be done with it...but it's the ugly chick at the gym of the gun rack.

[mcguyver]

Tyson, tell us how you really feel.

[Dynamo]

one of the main problems of the WA M4 design is the bolt catch.
it's not so much that it doesn't work, since it does, but more along the lines of how it has been designed to work.

the second major issue is the bolt and how it's unsupported during operation.
as the carrier cycles and the bolt moves out from the carrier from the blowback pressure, the bolt becomes free to wobble around enough that some times both the back and front end of the bolt gas inlet strikes the bolt catch during recoil and battery. this doesn't seem like a huge issue at first but this can cause quite a bit of damage to the bolt gas inlet.

being that the bolt gas inlet and the magazine gas outlet gasket are flat and horizontal, they rub against each other as they cycle. so what right? well, if you have a plastic bolt it's not such a big deal since it's not really hard, but if you use metal bolt the inlet will become rough and will have some sharp jagged edges on it. this ends up chewing up the rubber on the magazine gas outlet, and now you have a crappy seal between the bolt and mag.

this brings up the next problem. since the bolt inlet and the magazine outlet are horizontal, any wobble of the magazine in the magwell will cause a misalignment in the seal and waste a lot of gas. this is also the reason why some WA-G&P-AGM owners are having instances where they pull the trigger and the mag dumbs all of it's gas.

there are other smaller issues, but nothing really worth talking about.
one of the current problems seems to have been addressed by VFC and their GBBR which is based off the WA design. they seem to have solved the boltcatch problem, which i really like how they redesigned it. the section that contacts the bolt now only moves vertically and no longer rotates on an axis like the WA design. this eliminates that problem of the bolt inlet striking the boltcatch.

also form what i have read about the VFC redesign, it would also appear that they have redesigned the top of the mag (the gas outlet) and the inlet on the bolt. this might be why they stated that the VFC GBBR's will not be compatible with WA style mags.

from and engineer's perspective i would take a guess as to what they changed on the mag and bolt. i would assume that they change the seal configuration from a flat horizontal style to an angled and or curved shape seal. this would not only improve the seal contact between the bolt and mag, but also prevent the bolt inlet and mag outlet from rubbing on each other. this means that the seal would last longer and it would also help push the mag down and forward, reducing mag rotation in the magwell.

i'm really looking forward to the release of the VFC GBBR's, especially if they have indeed fixed the problems that were designed into the WA system.

[kullwarrior]

Originally Posted by Dynamo

also form what i have read about the VFC redesign, it would also appear that they have redesigned the top of the mag (the gas outlet) and the inlet on the bolt. this might be why they stated that the VFC GBBR's will not be compatible with WA style mags.

from and engineer's perspective i would take a guess as to what they changed on the mag and bolt. i would assume that they change the seal configuration from a flat horizontal style to an angled and or curved shape seal. this would not only improve the seal contact between the bolt and mag, but also prevent the bolt inlet and mag outlet from rubbing on each other. this means that the seal would last longer and it would also help push the mag down and forward, reducing mag rotation in the magwell.

i'm really looking forward to the release of the VFC GBBR's, especially if they have indeed fixed the problems that were designed into the WA system.

Dude, nothing is solid at this point, and FYI VFC made the mag incompatable because of their idealogy on not stealing someone else's work. (One guy at arnie's actually ask them)
And honestly, I really doubt other system will sell as good as WA (since US can't allow WE) and WE. Unless you have like a swap bolt carrier and the mag works type of deal, its highly unlikely.

[cbcsteve]

Even I can sense the market really changing

I don't get asked much about "Can you get this AEG" more of "Can you get this GBB or GBB-R"

I've seen the WE M4 work and now good old Tyson is becoming a pro at disassembling and fixing it up which I am guessing other gun docs may begin too as well once the GBB-R really gets rolling

If anything its definitely not a FAD so long as development continues, by the sheer number of pages upon pages of tech talk on some GBB-R it seems that purchasing is going to continue and probably even climb higher once WE or some other company perfects it and executes their marketing plan properly

[aznpos531]

Originally Posted by cbcsteve

Even I can sense the marketing really changing

I don't get asked much about "Can you get this AEG" more of "Can you get this GBB or GBB-R"

I've seen the WE M4 work and now good old Tyson is becoming a pro at disassembling and fixing it up which I am guessing other gun docs may begin too as well once the GBB-R really gets rolling

If anything its definitely not a FAD so long as development continues, by the sheer number of pages upon pages of tech talk on some GBB-R it seems that purchasing is going to continue and probably even climb higher once WE or some other company perfects it and executes their marketing plan properly

Does not bode well for battery manufacturers...but Coleman is all smiles

[Dynamo]

Originally Posted by kullwarrior

Dude, nothing is solid at this point, and FYI VFC made the mag incompatable because of their idealogy on not stealing someone else's work. (One guy at arnie's actually ask them)
And honestly, I really doubt other system will sell as good as WA (since US can't allow WE) and WE. Unless you have like a swap bolt carrier and the mag works type of deal, its highly unlikely.

well from the pictures that i have seen of the VFC M4 GBBR, the only thing they changed on the mag is the valve layout. you can tell by looking that the firing block (valve striker pin assembly). it's different than the WA design, and it looks to me that they solved the issue of not being able to insert a mag with the hammer de-cocked.

as for the top section of the mag, it would seem that it's identical to the WA design, as the bolt looks to be the same design (with some improvements) as the WA. one of the changes to the bolt that i noticed is an integrated "NAPS"ish type system to adjust the FPS. the difference being that you adjust the FPS from a screw on top of the bolt(on the fake bolt cam pin).

it's also nice to see they are using a brass bushing on the hammer and not a steel bearing, and the new bolt catch design makes sence. this is far better then the WA design.

for whatever reason VFC made their mags incompatible with WA guns, i really could care less. if it's a better design that runs more efficient then thats where my money is going. so WA is currently the most popular and has the most aftermarket parts, so what.. what good is it to keep producing parts for a flawed design? the only thing that the WA has on the other GBBR (WE) is more aftermarket parts. if you need to replace the internals with "upgraded" yet still flawed by design parts, you are just throwing away your money.

i honestly think that we dont have any CO2 mags for the WA system due to it's problems and it's inefficient use of gas. if it runs like crap on propane, it'll run just as bad on CO2, so there really isnt any point in having CO2 mags until the issues with this system are sorted out and fixed.

i dont know what the WA design team was doing during the R&D of their magna system, but they should be fired.

[RacingManiac]

They were designing for a gun using hfc134a, with light weight bolt and plastic body...and they work fine for that.....no different from any other WA guns really....

It would be interesting, if VFC striker block can be adopted to WA body which allows for a VFC-system be used in WA...but that would be stretching it....

[Hata]

Actually, among all brands, which one is most close to RS in term of internal design and mechanism??

[kullwarrior]

Originally Posted by Hata

Actually, among all brands, which one is most close to RS in term of internal design and mechanism??

WA currently is the winner.
VFC is unrelease yet, and the durability is not known.

And don't forget there's a way to rig a CO2 or HPA setup, RA-Tech uses it quite often in their new vid.


As for WA team, let me ask you the following questions:
When I say where's WA from?
You should say Japan

WHen I say what's the gas allowed to be used in Japan
answer should be 134a gas

When I ask can any WA guns take propane stock
answer is no.

AFAIK they did their job, stick to 134a gas, and there would be lil to no problem.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

So what do we think today?

A year on.. seeing as I just purchased my 7th GBBR?

I think.. they are here to stay

Originally Posted by m102404

Ok...part boredom...but I've been wondering this for the past couple of months....

- development, production and sales of GBBR (gas blow back rifles) weapons have really taken off overseas.
- they've been out for a bit
- aftermarket parts are out there
- they're fun as sin....
- the How-To's, DIY and instructional stuff is accumulating

(note: I haven't gotten mine yet...hopefully the stars&moon will align that that will be changed soon).

I personally am wondering about the shot to shot consistency when gaming...we'll see I guess.

Question:
* Does anyone actually think these things are skirmishable/gameable here in Canada?
* Would you ditch ALL your AEGs/PTWs to go over to the gas-side?
* Are you positioning your GBBR as just a fun gun? Occasional use? Full-on go-to primary?

(Note: If you post up what make/model you've got...I'll keep a running tally for interest sake).

Thanks,

Tys

[Strelok]

Well, At first I was pretty skeptical of them.

Now I have one coming my way, I'm just crossing my fingers for more non-armalite models, its getting kind of annoying how there is 40 versions of the same damn gun .
Who else wants some Ww2 battle rifles?

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Strelok

Well, At first I was pretty skeptical of them.

Now I have one coming my way, I'm just crossing my fingers for more non-armalite models, its getting kind of annoying how there is 40 versions of the same damn gun .
Who else wants some Ww2 battle rifles?

WE M14 serves from shooting distance hard to tell it from a Garand

but I'm with you..

NEED a serviceable AK as well I have a GHK one.. and is sucks large.. mags are a STOOPID design

[Strelok]

Thats what I had bought, Gonna see how easy it is to convert to a garand~ Damn mags though!

Y'know, i've noticed that WE is very, very responsive to the community, I wonder if someone accumulated a big list of 'guns of interest' if they'd actually listen.

[RacingManiac]

I am still very much partial to them for the fun reason. They still have their limitation and they still require a different style of play. They are still very much expensive once you take upkeep into account, and they are probably still require more maintenance and general fixing. I still won't pick AEG over them, even if AEG might be cheaper and more reliable. It would be nice still to have an "TM-like" experience for GBBR, but that has yet to happen.

That hasn't stopped me from starting a 2nd full gun build though....