See through guns and the death of "airsoft"

[The Saint]

I showed up at my first game with camo. They really aren't that expensive. And the current clear G&G and ICS are 2/3 what my first gun cost. Also, very importantly, I had boots on, not sneakers.

Am I a milsim nut? Not by any stretch of the imagination. I've been to maybe 1 milsim in all my years (most due to scheduling and lack of transportion). Otherwise all I get to are skirmishes and themed games. But I can appreciate that others around me have an minimum expectation, and that camo just works better when you're trying to hide.

[pusangani]

same here, I went to my first game at the TWAT field in ACU/ICU and boots, like an idiot and every single person was wearing green, but i still had a good time nonetheless

I got AV'd at army issue, and he gave me a good rundown of what to expect at my first game, and he helped me get kitted out for the day as well

[Mr.Shiney]

I would agree that safety is an issue with some newer players who have never handled a firearm before.

With each training session for my Team (1CSSR) or game we have a review of basic safety rules. Trigger Discipline, Muzzle Discipline, First Aid, No Duff, Blind Fire and such.

Recently we had an ASC Member attend a training session. I will ask that members of ASC or 1CSSR not to mention specifics about this member in public, if you are aware of whom I am discussing.

This ASC member is fairly new, and did have clear soft. He presented as very young and immature. He had difficulty with his safe handling skills. So I took some time and asked other members that had been at events this member had been at. They also confirmed this ASC members poor safe handling and lax attitude.

So I sent this member a PM, asking him about specific concerns that I had, and I would like to work with him to create a positive outcome.

He has yet to send a response of any substance, basically he ignored it.

I was hoping to get the opportunity to mentor him, or at least provide some more training and education around Normal Safe Handling.

At this same training session we had another ASC member also attended with clearsoft. He had decent safe handling skills. Just proving it is not the gun, it is the person in control of it.

We as a community, regardless of the Team we are on, or the Clubs we belong to, or the Fields we play on, need to form a common standard. We need to ensure for the safety of ourselves and our sport need to make that we allow new players to develop the correct skills. That when a player needs to grow and learn how to operate safely, provide that training. If a player after several attempts just cannot or will not get it, then BAN him.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Torque

I have a quick question. Are you guys mad at people that show up to their first game in jeans and have a clearsoft or ones that play for more then a few months like that. How long does one have between their first game and requireing all the goods needed?

If all you are going to do is play scrims at a paintball field, you don't need anything but a gun, hicap mag and some BBs. The rest is all fluff.

If you want to get more serious, or play other types of games, you need it all, you need it immediately, or you become a liability to yourself and other players (unless you are tasked with playing a specific role by the admins).

What Brian has mentioned is a sympton shown in other aspects of society. We all know about tourists. They decide they want to go for a backwoods nature hike, and take a water bottle and garnola bar. They get lost, someone dies, and the survivor bitches about how SAR failed to save them. Sometimes, people expect they should just be able to do what they want, how they want, when they want, everything on their terms. If you are alone in your endeavour, this is fine. When you have to join a community at the bottom of the totem pole, this is totally unacceptable.

If a community has set a minimum standard, it is the responsibility of the new guy to conform, not the responsibility of the community to accomodate. Nor is it the responsibility of the community to mentor. Nobody mentored me, you learn what you need, you get it and get your job done.

This is not an airsoft issue, this is part and parcel of what we allow society to think is acceptable. Years ago when I started in the electrical trade, you bought your own tools, you made sure you had everything you need. What you absolutely did not do is ask your journeyman to borrow his tools, nor did you do any creative or independent thinking. You did what you were told. If you didn't have money for tools, too bad, you sold your mother if you had to. Now, all I hear is whining and complaining about "I can't afford it" or "why can't I borrow your drill, you have 4 of them?"

This whole issue boils down to personal responsibility first, and responsibility to the community you enter second. Mentoring is not a right to be expected by new guys, and it is not the job of vets to mentor. If it occurs, it needs to be treated as a privilege subject to review.

During the Keystone game in 2006, the Red team lost about 1/2 their number throughout the 24 hours to dehydration, injury, exhaustion and disgust at getting their asses handed to them from the game start. Other than injury, the rest is not acceptable in my opinion. Guys showed up with a couple of bottled water and a granola bar to sustain them in a 24hr game at 28 dgrees outside.

There is no shortage of info on this website that anyone can learn all about what they need to do for themselves and their fellow players long before they ever step onto the field. I think Brian's whole point is that guys don't give a shit, show up, do whatever, "if I like it, I like it, if I don't, I don't" attitude with no feeling of personal or community responsibility.

Notice how I didn't mention anything about guns or gear here? This is only a symptom of an underlying problem.

[Gridlock]

I understand fully the issues and concerns raised here. I have my own as well.

I'm an entirely new player. I've not been to a game yet, though that's happening sooner rather than later. Given the tough place I am in with money right now, I'm assuming it's perfectly reasonable to go to a game (with prior notice mind you) in jeans, a hoodie, and ask to borrow someone's gun (also with prior notice). It lets me learn the game, learn proper safety, and gives me a taste for the game. If I love it, which I'm assuming I will, then I can go full-bore into it and get fully kitted out. If I don't, no harm, you'll never hear from me again.

My question is, if I show up to a game without full kit but with a learning attitude and proper respect for all rules and safety, will I still get looked down on purely for not having proper kit?

EDIT: mcguyver answered it pretty well.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

My question is, if I show up to a game without full kit but with a learning attitude and proper respect for all rules and safety, will I still get looked down on purely for not having proper kit?

Depends. If you showed up to a hot day on a large field, you will likely end up as a casualty or liability without proper hydration, protective gear or sustenance. Airsoft usually requires more than just a gun and attitude. If you are a paintball field playing short games with breaks in between, no problem. If you show up to a full day's game with no breaks, you need some minimal gear. A radio may be necessary, a cheap LBV, some BBs, extra battery, hydration, boots, proper eye protection (or face protection), you get the idea.

[L473ncy]

Originally Posted by Torque

I have a quick question. Are you guys mad at people that show up to their first game in jeans and have a clearsoft or ones that play for more then a few months like that. How long does one have between their first game and requireing all the goods needed?

Hmm.... good question torque. I think that it should be within the first 3 games or first 2 months. Whichever comes first.

If they're interested and committed then they should go out to an army surplus and just get a $40 pair of OD combats at minimum.

If you were there my first game I actually didn't have BDU's (they were at home) and had to borrow from Jonas but I ended up liking my first game and did buy a vest after.

Really though for some of the larger teams I think there should be a "team store" or armoury. If someone needs a rental ask on a team forum and rent a gun for $20, if someone needs some BDU's then just give them a set of OD much like what you'd do at a paintball field with coveralls. I realize this isn't very feasible for most teams as guns cost money and you need to have a gundoc or someone maintain them and as for the BDU's you need a variety of sizes but it might be an idea for the larger teams.

[Metternich]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

My question is, if I show up to a game without full kit but with a learning attitude and proper respect for all rules and safety, will I still get looked down on purely for not having proper kit?

Yes; so long as you bring the proper attitude gear isn't very relevant, unless it's a milsim with gear requirements. If you approach the community with a learning attitude and a respect for the players and rules, then you are this communities ideal new player.

[Shrike]

Cool, drama. Makes life worth living for everyone.

I think a big problem that hurt "oldschool" airsoft in Canada (Ont. at least) has been the invention and common use of the internet.

wtf shrike? you say. The people that I first played with (like Scarecrow described, in '04 for me) ALLOWED you to attend a game and you were watched. And approached to join teams. It was all part of the social aspect of the underground sport. I fantasized about a sport like this all my life so finding it I was like a kid in the candy store. I wanted to jump in and belong. I FOUND OTHER NORMAL (sort of) PEOPLE WHO LIKE PLAYING WITH GUNS AND TACTICS!! I was on ASC (and have been since) all the time, it's the first time I ever got involed with a community online. I was a posting noob too. Treadstone and KD were the funniest people I had ever read and I developed man crushes. I musta freaked em out cause Tready BLASTED me in a pm about no one wanting me here. I still don't know if that asshole was joking or not at the time. I was mortified that I had offended this community that I wanted to be a part of and posted a public appology for whatever damage I had done (probably posting "lol" after every kd or tready post) Did I mention they are dicks?

back to my point, Scarecrow or Morb or someone was talking about back in the day day, when some ooooold guy named Poncho had to call people on a weekend and have a telephone chain or something to arrange games. ON TEH FONE!! That intimacy creates a tribe (teams) that dissolved into many other tribes. Change happened. Now with the internet, little Johnny Rottenass can log in anywhere and add to the fray on this asc tribe.

I have no answers, just wanted to blame the internet for something.

[sixb0nes]

Positive attitude, coupled with the genuine interest to learn and grow among the community is the most important thing. The gear will grow with you.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by L473ncy

Really though for some of the larger teams I think there should be a "team store" or armoury. If someone needs a rental ask on a team forum and rent a gun for $20, if someone needs some BDU's then just give them a set of OD much like what you'd do at a paintball field with coveralls. I realize this isn't very feasible for most teams as guns cost money and you need to have a gundoc or someone maintain them and as for the BDU's you need a variety of sizes but it might be an idea for the larger teams.

No, no, no, no and no.

It is the responsibility of the player to kit himself out, not the responsibility of others to provide for him. When I go to any game, I have rifle with a functional backup. I have a GBB with a functional back-up. I have my planned BDUs for the day, as well as kit with a fallback for a lighter load if it is hot.

I come with BBs (I don't pester people a week before to buy some), batteries fully charged (not sitting there borrowing someones charger an hour before game time). I bring a radio, food, water, boots, several eyewear options, kill rag, bug spray, antifog, paper towels, minimal tools to do emergency repair (usually to other guys guns) or adjustments. I get my ass there early, gear up and am ready to go in a matter of minutes. Then I have time to BS with other guys. I load my mags the night before to keep gear-up time to a minimum. I don't show up late, and I don't pester guys to borrow things.

This is called self-sufficiency. It works in other areas of life as well.

[ex]

A few years ago I decided to give away all the excess gear and bdu's I had. It was enough to kit out one guy. So I decided to hold a raffle. A bunch of vets in the area donated pouches, webbing, belts you name it. All I asked was that the people entering the draw have no gear and be a new player. I asked that the winner make a commitment to the sport and actually show up to play. Well I got about 15 names and made the draw. I sent a large box off to the winner and NEVER heard from him again. I have been watching for this young fellow to show up but 2 years later still nothing. Oh well....Fast forward to present day. I run the local field in Ottawa. I put in hours and hours and my own money to get the games going. We set up a website made a self registering feature on that website so players could sign up and remove themselves as they saw fit or needed to. Still with everything we have tried to do to motivate the new players quite a few still show up with sub par guns and zero equipment, water, food or motivation. As it often does in the summer it gets to be a bit warm and half of them wander off to the safe zone to "rest". Airsoft is a team oriented sport and when half your team just wanders around aimlessly not taking any regard for the rest of their squad/team it just pisses people off to no end. I get tired of having to give away my water and food and jacket or time to fix their guns because they have not invested any time and or effort into getting themselves prepared. I am more than willing to help anyone that asks but for the love of fuck show some initiative, drive and determination. If you want to play "paintsoft" do it on your own time not everyone else's.

[Gridlock]

Excellent. I was starting to get worried.

I look forward to meeting you all on the field.

[Mitchell12]

Buy some fucking OD or Woodland, There's no excuse not too if you plan on playing more then your first game. Even for scrims, Just do it. It's cheap as hell.

I've came to games in a leather jacket and jeans + my M3 with shells. Maybe like 2 or 3 times when I didn't have my BDU's available or no time to put them on before the game. It happens and thats fine just don't make a habbit of it.

[swatt13]

mudder
youve got alot of nerve waving your internet ego around. i dont think you have any right to tell me to cut the horseshit. do you say the same thing to someone wearing a poppy in november? and what does my aver status have to do with anything? i should ask how you got av'd because with an attitude like that im pretty sure your request should have gotten mysteriously lost. you think quoting me in your sig is an attempt at makeing me look bad? try again, im proud to say that, ive said it 100 times before and ill continue to say it.

you honestly dont think doing an accurate impression and trying to see what its like for our soldiers through milsim game play isnt a way of trying to honour them? when you run for cover under fire you dont get a sense of what these guys go through and you dont say to your self holy shit thats amazing. i dont have to worry about dying or getting people killed and i think its pretty intense when its friends shooting plastic. so im humbled and want to shake the hand of the man who is getting shot at by bad people with real bullets.