Is it Illegal for a Minor to POSSESS an Airsoft Gun in Canada?

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by Hypnos

Why can we all just get along????

So I can see Illusion’s side of the story. He does not want to become an air soft commie by pushing rule/ law in this website that is not pushed in the firearms act. When he wants proof, he wants federal proof, and no one can show, “Regulation 54, Act 7, Paragraph 22, Line 13; Airsoft is illegal for those under 18 years of age� So because it is not a law being pushed by this free country we call Canada, he will no become a dictator and push it on the web site.

That being said, it is a pretty close fact (though I have not been able to find any newspaper clippings to uphold this fact) that every time airsoft goes to court, it is categorized as a replica, and replicas are illegal for those under 18. I don’t care how a replica is defined or the question of if airsoft is replica, all I care about is when the time comes that airsoft goes to court, it goes to court as a replica and you will be charged under replica law.

So though airsoft is not “illegal�, and by rights we cannot push that you have to be 18 to own one, we can as adults realize that if we do something stupid, we will be charged under the replica act. Most underage people cannot or will not think about this because of two reasons, 1) They are kids and really don’t know about the law yet, and 2) They are kids so what could the law do to them? That is why you should be 18 or older, because with adulthood comes responsibility and punishment as an adult.

Underage people that come to this web sight asking where to buy an airsoft gun, and get told you are under age you can’t, but then don’t listen really have no right to get info from us. If that underage person keeps pushing the fact and says “well fine, I will smuggle it in from the states�, really should not be getting any ideas from our threads. If that underage person that keeps pushing cannot spell worth crap, really shows the point that if they cannot spell, cannot read big words like legislation and prohibited, and should not own a gun that is in the grey area of law where many of these big words are.

5) Can we as an association with knowledge and privileges with airsoft act like a mature and professional association with knowledge and privileges?


The law is for and against us where it is in a grey area. In other words, they law cannot help this debate, and that is the reason why we have freedom. But I believe it is our responsibility as mature individuals to guide underage people in a mature manner to give them information and get them interested in airsoft. We need something on this website that we can say, “look kid, your not listening, go here and read this, then come back and ask a question, before then, we are not talking to you anymore.�

As this thread has proven, there is no easy answers to some very easy questions and until we start having more info on it on this web site, this debate will never end. We cannot answer Illusion’s simple question because the law in place is full of holes, thus it is not simple to interpret. So we need to start gathering info and placing it on this website. If we have a thread of “airsoft in the news� that would be a great place to start an underage person’s learning experience along with ours. Only then can we maybe come close to answering a question in a grey area. We need to find some black and white information.

Well said, Airsoft in Canada will always remain an underground sport, until our government are ready to be as understanding as the British, Japanese or even the HK government where there is an actual law drafted regulating the sales and usage , we have to be conscious on who we allow to have the privilege of playing this game. We as an association/club have no right to determined what minor can or cannot do because there are no laws regulating Airsoft but I do believe that some sort of CONTROL AND REGULATION such as having a minimum age requirement is a good start.

Some of us have been playing since we were 10 yrs old with springers and we were always constantly told or guided by other older players on how the game should be played and how to conduct ourselves, we listened. Maybe the culture is different here than in Asia where minors tend to obey the elders a bit more than their north American counter part. Things before this site was created used to be so much simpler when there was only a few dozen of us playing, Newbies learned from watching the game and asking question live in person. WHY CAN'T THINGS BE THE SAME??? WANT TO KNOW ABOUT AIRSOFT ?? THEN GET OUT AND AWAY FROM THE DAMN COMPUTER AND GO TO A GAME ASK AN OLD FART THE HOW, WHAT, WHEN, AND WHERE AND LISTEN. OBSERVATION IS THE MOST SATISFACTORY ANSWER YOU ARE GOING TO GET ABOUT AIRSOFT.

[Greylocks]

Be careful Wildcard, next you'll be accused of the same things I do:
WHY CAN'T THINGS BE THE SAME??? WANT TO KNOW ABOUT AIRSOFT ?? THEN GET OUT AND AWAY FROM THE DAMN COMPUTER AND GO TO A GAME ASK AN OLD FART THE HOW, WHAT, WHEN, AND WHERE AND LISTEN. OBSERVATION IS THE MOST SATISFACTORY ANSWER YOU ARE GOING TO GET ABOUT AIRSOFT

Cheers.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by Greylocks

Be careful Wildcard, next you'll be accused of the same things I do:
WHY CAN'T THINGS BE THE SAME??? WANT TO KNOW ABOUT AIRSOFT ?? THEN GET OUT AND AWAY FROM THE DAMN COMPUTER AND GO TO A GAME ASK AN OLD FART THE HOW, WHAT, WHEN, AND WHERE AND LISTEN. OBSERVATION IS THE MOST SATISFACTORY ANSWER YOU ARE GOING TO GET ABOUT AIRSOFT

Cheers.

It will be an honor to be accused of the same thing as you.

Guys (all the minors)really if you want to know more go out to a game ask the organizers some question I'm sure they will be more than happy to provide you with all the info you need. i.e about ten to eleven years ago there was this freckled young guy came to one of team Hot Shot game at Paint ball shitty wanting to know more after he stumbled into Gary Wong store, he stood out back then because he was the only Caucasian among the sea of Chinese players that night, I Spent the whole entire night explaining to him about the game, how to play, what equipment he need, where to get them and how to maintained it, he listened the next night (at that time we played almost three to four night a week) he showed up in a mechanic outfit and for the whole night we played with 20 other players with MY AEG no rental was charged simply here is a new AEG, charged batteries go nuts and enjoy(CAR15 when it was brand spanking new to the market) in time this person became a team member and also an important member to this sport some of you guys know him as Gump.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by Ronan

On another note, these "fail" pictures are so not funny anymore.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by Greylocks

Illusion, from 2 pages ago. I dont remember the exact court case; it was either Kuramae or a guy caught in a drug sting who also happened to have airsoft.

So since I dont remember which was which, all that stuck in my mind was that part of the charge mentioned Replicas. Wether that is the right thing to do or not, that's what the legal charge was.

So, in my book, if they use that as a charge and leave it up to you to argue with a Judge... I'll use at least the Replica laws as a guideline when I make comments.

I too will do that until something else comes along to change my mind. Why? Because since the enforcement people seem to bring up Replica or Prohibited Devices when they charge someone about airsoft, then it only makes sense to use their standards.

Who can have a Replica or Prohibited item in their possession is crystal clear. Getting them is another discussion because nobody here should be able to do that.

Minors getting guns:
IF your parents bought one for you, IF you only use it under their supervision, IF you only use it at authorized places, IF you DONT own it or access it when the parents are not present, then OK.
How many minors do all of the above?

Grey, a CHARGE is not a RULING. Let's make that clear.

Until somebody gets criminally charged and convicted for owning an airsoft gun, we have no grounds. We have SEIZURES of airsoft guns that were attempts at importation whose decisions were backed up with replica law, but there are no criminal charges AND RULINGS that we are aware of.

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

well I don't think it is your job to ban users for asking questions... Neither is it the forum's job to enforce the law.

It is underage players parents jobs to supervise their kids when they are using airsoft guns...not yours... or anyone elses..

Exactly my point.

Anyways, my conclusion from this thread: Because there are still no clear-cut answers (despite the cases shown, they are cases of someone having their gun seized and the CBSA backing up their enforcement as they always have), I can not outright act against a minor for speaking of airsoft ownership.

Until the law comes knocking on ASC's door to tighten that up, or until we read in the newspaper about LEO's knocking down a 14 year old's bedroom door for having an airsoft rifle in his possession, then I can not outright enforce the idea that it is illegal for a minor to own an airsoft gun. I'm not for the ownership of the guns by minors, but where there's a will, there's a way. I'm more for the idea of doing our best in educating minors towards ownership rather than feeding them with false laws as scare tactics.

[Hypnos]

Originally Posted by Greylocks

Hypnos, read what I just posted and Ex-royal's link. There's the law as it was applied. Right or wrong, it was applied in a Court in that way.

That ends it in my book.

That is my point exactly. It is not written down in the firearms act that air soft is prohibited for those under 18, but when air soft goes to court it is handles as a prohibited “replica�. So, even though it is not written in law, we should, under our own discretion, treat them as prohibited replicas.

But, we cannot in force that here or anywhere, but we can say “Look, I know what it states in the law and I know the hassle that the courts will put me through,� and with our own responsibility in mind, can deny helping or encouraging an underage person in obtaining and owning a weapon. We can under our own discretion, kindly let the underage person know that the courts see them as prohibited even though it is not written in law, and that is why airsoft is in a grey area. This is what we need to be teaching the underage person. “We can help, but honestly the potential hassle in this grey area is way too much.�

I totally agree with no underage persons being able to purchase or own an airsoft weapon, but I cannot enforce that and neither can this web sight. But as a free person I can express my views and give back up like the link greylocks provided. This is the type of information we need. Though the information may not prove it one way or another (though it depends on how you interpret it), at least it is information. We need much more info because all we really have is a law full of holes that is confusing, and gets everyone frustrated.

I say let this debate end for now. Give it 6-12 months where people can submit articles pertaining to air soft, good and bad, and let’s post them. If we don’t have any info then why start this debate again when we have nothing to back up. The underage people keep asking us to back up what we say, how are we suppose to do that when we ourselves really don’t have enough info to back up what we say to each other. We have a grey law and one court instant. We need more.

[ILLusion]

Great way to end this discussion for now.

I'm going to lock this thread for now on that good note and perhaps in the near future, this thread can be re-opened when new information has been provided.

[Lawdog]

With apologies to Illusion who just locked the last thread.

I'm sure people have wondered why I rarely make any comment on the legal issues around AS when it is being discussed. The reason is, that it takes a good chunck of time to do a good job on a legal issue and unless I am going to get the answer perfect, I am not going to make any comment at all.

I should say that from time to time I have engaged in some informal discussions with people who have invested a lot of time on the issue and think that many of them (Brian, Saint, etc) are on the right track.

To help those who are curious on this issue I did a really quick and dirty search for decided caselaw involving airsoft and found the following:

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/search....unal=tribunals


or

1.Poirier v. Canada Border Services Agency, 2007 CanLII 11265 (C.I.T.T.) — 2007-03-08
Canada — Canadian International Trade Tribunal
spring airsoft rifle — resemble with near precision — antique firearm — prohibited — arme Ã* feu
2.Asia Pacific Enterprises Corporation v. Canada (Customs and Revenue), 2006 CanLII 53962 (C.I.T.T.) — 2006-06-12
Canada — Canadian International Trade Tribunal
replica firearm — guns — airsoft pistol — resemble with near precision — muzzle velocity
3.Koy v. Canada (Customs and Revenue), 2006 CanLII 53964 (C.I.T.T.) — 2006-06-06
Canada — Canadian International Trade Tribunal
resemble with near precision — antique firearm — airsoft pistol — definition of replica firearm — intended to exactly resemble
4.Leung v. Canada (National Revenue), 2002 CanLII 46865 (C.I.T.T.) — 2002-02-27
Canada — Canadian International Trade Tribunal
replica firearms — tariff item — goods — resemble with near precision — prohibited devices
5.Wong v. Canada (Border Services), 2006 CanLII 54093 (C.I.T.T.) — 2006-07-18
Canada — Canadian International Trade Tribunal
submachine gun — resemble with near precision — antique firearm — definition of replica firearm — intended to exactly resemble
6.Ross v. Canada Border Services Agency, 2007 CanLII 11266 (C.I.T.T.) — 2007-03-13
Canada — Canadian International Trade Tribunal
gun — intended to exactly resemble — antique firearm — rifle — definition of replica firearm
7.Rollins v. Canada (Customs and Revenue), 2001 CanLII 26492 (C.I.T.T.) — 2001-12-21
Canada — Canadian International Trade Tribunal
gun — firearm — properly classified under tariff item — prohibited — weapon
8.Servello v. Canada (Customs and Revenue), 2002 CanLII 46682 (C.I.T.T.) — 2002-06-19
Canada — Canadian International Trade Tribunal
replica firearm — resemble with near precision — good — properly classified under tariff item — red piece of plastic
9.Wong v. Canada (Customs and Revenue), 2006 CanLII 54064 (C.I.T.T.) — 2006-07-12
Canada — Canadian International Trade Tribunal
resemble with near precision — semi-automatic pistol — antique firearm — intended to exactly resemble — prohibited
10.Smith v. Canada (Customs and Revenue), 2003 CanLII 54630 (C.I.T.T.) — 2003-09-23
Canada — Canadian International Trade Tribunal
device — resemble with near precision — replica firearm — properly classified under tariff item — intended to exactly resemble

On a quick and dirty search these were the decided cases that used the term airsoft. You will note, that none of these are court cases per se, they are all tribunal cases. If you take the time to read them, in all 10 cases the tribunal decided that the AS guns in question indeed satisfied the CCC definition of a replica firearm.

If I do more research I will pass it along, but I am fairly busy these days, and legal stuff I like to do perfect.

Best

LD

[ChiefInTrees]

Well done LD.