Elitists -Newbies, please read

[Talon97]

Thanks for the great read guys. Read all 6 pages.

A lot of great points have been made, and I can fully understand where the term elitist comes from. I run several forums and know how frustrating it can be dealing with new folks who don't understand how to form a proper sentence, let alone how to properly ask a question. I've been there time and time again trying to explain the very basics about DSM (talons, eclipse, laser) and people will almost always resort to the cheapest possible alternative. And for god sakes, use the search button!

Something simple that DOES in fact translate to airsoft from my car modifying experience.

You can be cheap.
You can be fast (fps,accuracy etc)
You can be reliable.

But you can only pick 2.

As a newcomer to the sport, I also understand the flip side of the coin. (and I completely understand the hockey references, I never buy cheap skates - bad bad bad!) A friend and I both recently bought guns from Velocity Arms. We didn't go crazy, but didn't go completely on the cheap either. I bought an HK416 variant (w/552 reddot), and he got himself an M4 sniper setup. I've bought a full CADPAT BDU setup, a semi-cheap vest to start ($80, i'll see how I like it). I still need a few more things to complete my setup. I've also got a cheap CO2 pistol (I actually like it though) and a leg-drop holster. I'm sure I've spent over 1000-1100 dollars already. I understand how people may not want to invest more than a few hundred bucks into something. Sometimes you just need to go balls deep into things to find out if you truly enjoy it. Although you could borrow somebody's gear to get a good appreciation for the hobby/sport.

As long as the vets respect the nubs and help nurture them a bit instead of chastising them about everything they do wrong, I don't see the harm in how things are run here. In the end it's their decision whether or not to heed your advice. So far, so good for me though. Just don't jump down my (or other people) throat over some nub ignorance. Everybody has to start somewhere.

~Chris.

[cerealmaniac]

Originally Posted by Talon97

You can be cheap.
You can be fast (good fps etc)
You can be reliable.

But you can only pick 2.

i beg to differ lols. Hondas don't cost much to be fast, especially with ITR swaps. reliability isn't an issue either.

regarding airsoft, i think as long as you're having fun it's all good. honestly if i had to choice to go back i'd just buy a clear gun and enjoy the sport more.the choice is up to you whether or not to spend a sum of money on this hobby.

[Talon97]

Originally Posted by cerealmaniac

i beg to differ lols. Hondas don't cost much to be fast, especially with ITR swaps. reliability isn't an issue either.

Hey, I said fast! :P

[cerealmaniac]

Originally Posted by Talon97

Hey, I said fast! :P

ahaha 11 sec fast enough!? the reliability thing is really questionable though for every subject out there. which raises the question "How far do you want to go?"

*aside: not a honda fan myself

[The Chad]

People do fish for answers they possibly already know and i think thats just to support their decision.

Elite in my work space means "the best" in the gaming world. I wouldnt take it as an insult.

I still consider myself a n00b only because of my tenure in airsoft being just under a year. This doesnt mean i have a crap gun or don't know anything about airsoft, just that my tenure is low. I know CA, ICS, and TM are good based on what others have said as well as the price. I have had JG, WA, G&G, and KJW. All I can say is my G&G has been more reliable and durable than any other gun i have had. I have literally never cleaned the barrell, oiled the hop rubber, greased the cylinder, or anything for that matter and the bastard works just as it did out of the box 350fps consistantly.

I will never hesitate to offer a "n00b" my personaly opinion because i was in that situation back when i joined ASC and all of you were happy to give me some direction.








LOL @ Talon97 for the quote!

[Endus]

eye opening, I hope everyone read this, I though airsoft was about having fun, not about who has the better gun. Its personally each owns players choice to how much someone want to spend on one. If they spend 20.00, you get what you paid for. If you spend 1000.00 then you got a good gun. I think its foolish to call down other players over what type they have. I have the crappy plastic ones which have served me well, I have the money and when I get AV'ed ill buy better ones. Its simple Money = Quality

[Hawkeye_CJMC]

I think you nailed the root issue right here. Well said.

Originally Posted by aznpos531

I really don't think the quality of the gear/gun is the real issue here. Everyone knows that you get what you pay for and that higher quality stuff is more expensive for a reason; it will perform better and last longer. It's not even debatable...it's the cold hard truth.

A big part of the whole "flaming" and "elitist" thing going on at ASC is really about communication. As mentioned several times and as I've witnessed a number of times myself, sometimes the OP of a thread doesn't get the answer they were hoping for and flips out. I agree, immature and closed to the opinions of others. However, the whole process of the OP posing the question, to it being answered, to the OP using the term "elitist"...how does it come to be? Let's look beyond the content of the question and answers. While the written (or typed) word doesn't carry any "tone", it still has a certain air associated with how a statement is worded. If the delivery of an answer to a question is simple, to the point, informative, helpful and friendly, it'll be much better received than if it were condescending, insulting and otherwise unfriendly or discouraging.

At this point, I imagine the seasoned veterans of the sport going "Every noob that comes around thinks they can be a 1337 sniper with some China clone spring gun with high fps. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over." I can understand that and I agree that it gets tedious. Everyone has a point where their patience runs thin and emotions come into play and the need to be harsh comes in. I'm not saying that those giving good advice are at fault. As a matter of fact, I'm not saying the either party is at fault...not completely.

What I am saying is that a forum is where people share their opinions, experiences and knowledge on a common interest and where people come in search of information (in the form or opinions, experiences and knowledge). So the basic function (for lack of a better word) is giving out information and obtaining information. This goes back to what I said about communication. The process involves one party relaying information and the other party receiving, processing and understanding this information. In order for that to be successful, both parties need to play their part well. The party relaying info needs to do so in such a way that it can be received and understood by the other party, who, in turn, needs to do their best to receive and understand the info that they're given.

Statement of the obvious right? So how does this come into play other than the obvious? When the one answering the question (giving out info) is being helpful, informative and friendly, they are increasing the chances of the OP (the one to receive the info) actually receiving, understanding and accepting what's been said. If one, on the other hand, is being mean, unfriendly and insulting in answering the question, they are lowering the chances.

On the flip-side, when the OP is being close-minded and immature about an answer, they are not playing their part in communication...they are not receiving and understanding. Being on the receiving end of communication requires that you be open-minded and willing to learn. Bringing preconceptions that may be inaccurate is not a good way to learn, Remember the tea cup story? Long story short, a person goes to a master to learn under them. They are somewhat overconfident and even arrogant. They dislike what the master tells them to do and hate that the master won't "teach" them. When the confront the master, he gives the student a tea cup and begins pour tea into it. It fills up, but the master keeps pouring. When the student protests, the master says "Precisely, If the cup is already full, how can you fill it?"

Furthermore, if they ask a question that's already been answered many times, it's also a failure, on their part, to obtain information. Let's use this as an example: User comes and starts a thread and asks a question already answered in another thread. They didn't search, their fault. Some possible answers would be:
a) "Use the search function"
b) "Did you even try looking before you posted?"
c) "Read the FAQ's you idiot"
d) "[here is the answer to the question]. Next time, you can use the search function to see if you question has been answered before."
If you were the OP, which answer would be best received?

So really what I'm trying to say is, when someone gets "flamed" or called an "elitist" it all comes down to communication.

Sorry for my unorganized post...I'm not a very good writer, but those are just my thoughts, albeit messy.

[doc_pathfinders]

you're all a bunch of elitist b*stards

nice thread, and perfect for new players to read.. thankfully in all my (long grandpa phrase goes here) long years of playing, people have taken my advice (when given in person)

but then, if someone is an insufferable prat, they won't listen to anything that doesn't re-inforce the world view they have, even worse they don't know how to read the responses they do get. They will presume that the (insert item here) is good because they've seen it 'reviewed' by 2 kids on youtube (don't get me started on this) who take the gun out of the box and give themself a mental hand-job for the great purchase that they compare to _other_ online reviews by mentally handicapped youngsters..

so when one of this group asks for help selecting a gun (and they already have something in mind) they really just want a rubber-stamp on whatever they decide on.

they don't care if the 'god of airsoft' came down and wrote out a 5 page essay on the rights and wrongs of china-soft, they will (usually) go with the cheap option they have in mind, in doing so we as a community will try our very hardest to stop this inevitable train-crash that we know from _experience_ will happen.. and so they get defensive when we tell them they are going down a path of pain and suffering.

and also, to show my age..
i remember buying CA when it was gen 1 .

and then finding that it was shooting at 420FPS on a field that only allowed 328FPS

and then finding out that the springs were cut-down 'things' that used to dig chunks out of pistons, this was suprising to me because no-one even knew much about classic army. a metal body was made by systema, and the ferrari of airsoft was the old systema 'pro' (i think) line that would come out of the box shooting 560FPS, none of this PTW system.

[Omnivorous]

Originally Posted by TokyoSeven

This is just my own personal opinion on the matter. The way I see it is, more often than not a lot of new users (not all) show up at the door with questions, but in their minds they already have the answer (or at least the answer they want). When they do no receive the answer they want (reinforcement to their own answer that is) they get a little bent out of shape and the internet pee pees come out and the term elitist gets tossed around.

This is probably true. It's -kind of- how I've felt. I approached airsoft thinking I could buy a gun and ammo for under $200, get my camo at value village, and have a good time.

So when I'm repeatedly told that I have to spend $500+ and I see lists like this...

Originally Posted by m102404

Here's a sample tally for the minimum amount that you'll need:
* rifle - $300-900 (yes...they can be that expensive or more)
* mags - $60
* BBs - $20
* loader - $20
* charger - $150
* battery - $35
* rig to carry stuff - $60-200
* boots - $50-200
* BDUs - $60
* Goggles $100 (I'm still using the first pair of JT Flex 7's that I bought years ago...can't remember how much they cost)
* hydration pack/insert - $20

Tys

...it just feels daunting. I was just at big airsoft store in the states and the guy compared the cost of airsoft to the cost of buying an old car :cry:

But anyways, realizing this information isn't really any excuse to get bent out of shape or act like a "pee pee". It's just time for a decision, to airsoft or not to airsoft!

[FOX_111]

Being told you can get into airsoft for 300$ is a lie. At that price you'd be playing getto clearsoft with shitty toys that would ultimatly end up broken in the trash after one or 2 games. And you possibly proben in a cell for being stupid in public.

Organised airsoft is expensive, as you have found out. If I sold my gear, I'd probably be able to make a good downpayment on a house.

[Zeonprime]

Originally Posted by Endus

eye opening, I hope everyone read this, I though airsoft was about having fun, not about who has the better gun. Its personally each owns players choice to how much someone want to spend on one. If they spend 20.00, you get what you paid for. If you spend 1000.00 then you got a good gun. I think its foolish to call down other players over what type they have. I have the crappy plastic ones which have served me well, I have the money and when I get AV'ed ill buy better ones. Its simple Money = Quality

Originally Posted by Omnivorous

This is probably true. It's -kind of- how I've felt. I approached airsoft thinking I could buy a gun and ammo for under $200, get my camo at value village, and have a good time.

So when I'm repeatedly told that I have to spend $500+ and I see lists like this...

EDIT; quoted text of Tys' list on minimum purchase requirments. end edit


...it just feels daunting. I was just at big airsoft store in the states and the guy compared the cost of airsoft to the cost of buying an old car :cry:

But anyways, realizing this information isn't really any excuse to get bent out of shape or act like a "pee pee". It's just time for a decision, to airsoft or not to airsoft!

One of the problems of nubs/noobs buying crapsoft is they then sign for a game, take up a spot (in a capped game, this is usually a coveted position), attend and have a failure because the crapsoft, craps out. Then this leads to a scramble of lending that player a weapon, and if there was a gunsmith at the game even willing to look at the crapsoft (I have seen a couple take pity on a new player) and attempt to fix the problem during the game. Since we have good people in the majority of the playing population this is great help for the noob, but irritating to the host who now has 2-6 players out of game handling the crapsoft issue.

The sport in CANADA is expensive, nubs/noobs are consistently and repeatedly told to budget a minimum $1000 just to get started.

That number was never selected to create a since of elitism but was determined by a great great many senior players so that new players would have a realistic sense of cost so that they could adequately budget for it.

[Rugger_can]

Originally Posted by Omnivorous

...it just feels daunting. I was just at big airsoft store in the states and the guy compared the cost of airsoft to the cost of buying an old car :cry:...

Yea But, by your own admission

Originally Posted by Omnivorous

All you guys care about is selling guns on the classified and your egos.

Considering their prices are half (on avarage) what ours are you can only imagine what it really costs up here. But wait you've got that problem all figured out don't you.

Originally Posted by Omnivorous

...fact there are legal and lucrative methods of obtaining airsoft guns from the United States "if you do your homework".

...clearly I know ways of obtaining airsoft equipment at half the price...

So I don't see why you think Airsoft is a big daunting sport when your clearly so well informed that you can spend half (or less) what we do and walk away with a big grin on your face knowing that this community only cares about "our ego's" and "the classifieds"


I will leave you with this insight that explains behaviour such as that has been displayed in recent times.

Originally Posted by Eric Hoffer

“Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many. The resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done to them but from the sense of their inadequacy and impotence. They hate not wickedness but weakness. When it is in their power to do so, the weak destroy weakness wherever they see it.”

(American Writer, 1902-1983)

[wildcard]

Who ever started to tell nubs that $500 is a good starting point should maybe look at his list of equipment and maybe join us in 2010 pricing, the last time I remember a nub pay anywhere close to $500 to start playing is back in 92 when Marui MP5 was selling for $250, you can basicly get a Swat gear set up and look for a little over $600.

The $1000 starting budget will get you just that "STARTING" realisticly with today pricing to be "Equiped" you really have to budget around the $1.5 to $2K mark

[Rugger_can]

Originally Posted by wildcard

Who ever started to tell nubs that $500 is a good starting point should maybe look at his list of equipment and maybe join us in 2010 the last time I remember a nub pay anywhere close to $500 to start playing is back in 92 when Marui MP5 was selling for $250, you can basicly get a Swat gear set up and look for a little over $600.

The $1000 starting budget will get you just that "STARTING" realisticly with today pricing to be "Equiped" you really have to budget around the $1.5 to $2K mark

And it goes up and up and up and up. Hell 500 bucks would not cut it when I started back in 2001. I think I paid close to 800 bucks on my AK with mags and I jury rigged gear together on a shoestring budget because I was spending all my money back then on my bike.

nowadays even if you kept it to one gun. Multiple camo options to ensure you can play greenside/opfor/tan/ect and different weather conditions can push your total cost budget towards 3k.

Thus upon deciding to get back into airsoft I realized that It would cost me around 1800 or so to get what I needed to get myself back into the game to a point where I could enjoy my time and not feel "naked" on the field. But guess what kiddies, Im a broke ass student so its taken me close to 3 months since I "returned" to airsoft and Im still not even close to where I need to be.

Time and Patience.


Cheers

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by doc_pathfinders

and also, to show my age..
i remember buying CA when it was gen 1 .

and then finding that it was shooting at 420FPS on a field that only allowed 328FPS

and then finding out that the springs were cut-down 'things' that used to dig chunks out of pistons, this was suprising to me because no-one even knew much about classic army. a metal body was made by systema, and the ferrari of airsoft was the old systema 'pro' (i think) line that would come out of the box shooting 560FPS, none of this PTW system.

Just an FYI:
Classic army started with making bodies for the Marui G3 Mp5 series, They were awesome back then in fact i still have their G3 1st gen metal bodies for my PSG1 and my HK51 the aeg series your talking about are in fact Pro gear mech (HK Clone of a SYTEMA M140 box) box not Systema. Systema have no ties to classic army aeg, their own line of aeg were assembled with Zeke metal body that split in half vertically instead of the ones you see today, the Zeke/systema bodies comes in three sepearate piece (left and right body and a lower body assembly) they are a perfect fit no dremel required unlike the classic army or 1st gen G&P bodies.