SUPREME COURT OF CANADA RULES. Is this is new news and how this affects us?

[kalnaren]

The SCC can't change statutes (other than striking down unconstitutional ones, either in part or in full). They can very much -and often do- change common law, which is the vast majority of law in Canada. People can split hairs that common law is "interpretation" and not really law.. except it is recognized as law as practised in Canada.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by Cameron SS

Are you familiar with the term 'confirmation bias?'

Yeah, I am. I didn't initially believe the RCMP. It was too simple, too perfect, and it made us look like a bunch of idiots in terms of how wrong we were in our understanding of the law.

Well, when they're right, they're right.

Originally Posted by L473ncy

Hey Saint, just wondering but what are you up to these days anyways? You doing a PhD or gone onto business or what?

Ugh, no, enough with schooling, and most of all, business. Terrible times, terrible people.

Just a lowly servant of the Queen now.

[L473ncy]

Originally Posted by The Saint

Ugh, no, enough with schooling, and most of all, business. Terrible times, terrible people.

Just a lowly servant of the Queen now.

Tell me about it man. I was told that the industry was looking for people like me when I started out my schooling and 7 years later no bites for careers in my specialization (or related areas) at all. It's looking like another 4 years for me at least. And I know that I would never cut it out in regular business, the only business I'd ever look to run is a consulting firm where I can tell clients to fuck off or find someone else to do it.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by podpharmer

I just came here from cgn and read the whole thread and found it quite informative,

I just wanted to add that some feel that the firearms community would throw the airsoft/paintball community "under the bus" well I can wholeheartedly say that the exact opposite is true. the firearms community will gladly take as many people on our side as we can get screaming for common sense firearms laws. and throwing airsoft exc under the bus would only serve to divide and conquer us. we want more numbers not less.

there seems to be a wealth of legal knowledge here and I would like to ask a question.

I am an unpaid volunteer that assists coaching a juniors (youth) air pistol program. would the recent SCC case affect the legality of air pistols (.177 cal). in any way (transport,storage exc) I am no lawyer but I really need to be as educated as I can be. when a youth asks me a question I want to make damn sure I have the right answer.

thank you in advance for any help.

I dunno about that dude. I'm not saying it's all gun owners but a great deal do seem like elitist pricks and in my experience it's especially the blackgun (AR) owners who are like "if you don't have ____ you're a noob" (and a great number of them are "preparing for a zombie attack" but also get winded walking up a flight of stairs). Other sub sports (competition, hunting, trap etc.) have their own "cultures" but it's mainly the blackgun owners that I seem to have problems with who seem to need to have dick measuring contests all the time and shit on others but that's just my experience.

As for the air pistol thing, keep doing what you're doing, AFAIK what you're doing is lawful use and if you're transporting with trigger locks and cases and all that's even better. Just so you know that I'm not talking out of my ass, I do have a background in Olympic style air rifle (never competed just did it recreationally).

[podpharmer]

I am both an ar-15 owner and an ISSF national gold/silver medalist so please dont lump us all in the same boat. there are lots good people,and yes lots of retards in anything with that many members (there are just under 2 million people in Canada with a possession and acquisition licence http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f.../index-eng.htm)

like anything else the idiots get noticed a lot more then the bulk of regular people.

[L473ncy]

Originally Posted by podpharmer

I am both an ar-15 owner and an ISSF national gold/silver medalist so please dont lump us all in the same boat. there are lots good people,and yes lots of retards in anything with that many members (there are just under 2 million people in Canada with a possession and acquisition licence http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f.../index-eng.htm)

like anything else the idiots get noticed a lot more then the bulk of regular people.

Like I said I'm not trying to lump them all together in the same boat but that's just been my experience with some that I've met, they all seem to want to be tactical mall ninjas and measure their dicks. (If anything I'm probably more oper8r than they are because I'm actually fit and can think quick on my feet). I don't have a beef with you but I do have a beef with those kinds of people that try to make it an "exclusive" thing, it really doesn't help them make allies to shit on other (new) people and not educate the general public rationally. (EDIT: I'm not a member of it but I also have a beef with a forum with the initials LF because of what I perceive as this exact behaviour that I was trying to convey above)

And I'm actually part of a group that tries to get "regular people" (who otherwise wouldn't normally be into it) involved in shooting sports. Hell I went trap shooting like 2 week ago for the first time ever and got to shoot a bunch of pistols and rifles as well another time.

[rc_p120]

So all of our airsoft guns less than 500fps but more than 214fps (read-just about all of them) are now considered real firearms.... How the fuck is this not a devastating blow to the airsoft community again? This was a Supreme Court of Canada decision not a twitter status.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by rc_p120

So all of our airsoft guns less than 500fps but more than 214fps (read-just about all of them) are now considered real firearms.... How the fuck is this not a devastating blow to the airsoft community again? This was a Supreme Court of Canada decision not a twitter status.

Once you understand that a clarification of existing statutes is what the ONCA decision was, and that the SCC affirmation of said decision is nothing more than an agreement with a clarification of existing law, what has changed? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

The law has not changed.

The interpetation of the law "may" have changed, but interpretation is open to change, always has been, we have been dealing with that already for years now.

Take your guns to game and use them. The is no blow to the airsoft community.

Please read entire thread before freakout. Drake got it all down already.

[L473ncy]

Originally Posted by rc_p120

So all of our airsoft guns less than 500fps but more than 214fps (read-just about all of them) are now considered real firearms.... How the fuck is this not a devastating blow to the airsoft community again? This was a Supreme Court of Canada decision not a twitter status.

Ship me your guns, I'll take them off your hands.

[rc_p120]

So you guys are saying this will not effect enforcement of the law or perception by police officers in any way? Really?

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by rc_p120

So you guys are saying this will not effect enforcement of the law or perception by police officers in any way? Really?

I am sure it will cause some confusion. This thread is evidence of that.

But, for what we do, what changes? Nothing.

[rc_p120]

'Confusion' that can lead to people being criminally charged with illegally transporting or storing a firearm by having an AEG in an unlocked soft case or a GBB without a trigger lock is some pretty serious shit. We're both gun owners, we know that.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by rc_p120

'Confusion' that can lead to people being criminally charged with illegally transporting or storing a firearm by having an AEG in an unlocked soft case or a GBB without a trigger lock is some pretty serious shit.

Doubtful. There are millions of more airguns in Canada than other firearms. The sky is not falling, and will not fall. There are many exemptions currently that airguns sit in legally, and not a single one of those was undone by any decision. In fact, absolutely no changes were made. Once you understand the case, the reason for the decision is a not a shocker.

We're both gun owners, we know that.

I own more in guns than most people pay for new vehicles. I am not worried.

I am more worried about some jackass shooting his handgun at trashed cars at the local dump.

[Ricochet]

The Supreme Court of Canada isn't going to war against every law abiding airsofter because some dude doing something stupid, that did not include the use of airsoft guns. How this may affect you? If you take an airsoft gun, pellet gun, BB gun, paintball gun, etc, and threaten someone with it, they'll likely lean in the same direction. This was a court case, nothing more, and in court cases they need to decide on clarification or else their case gets thrown out on a technicality. Any airsoft gun, or related device, used in a crime is treated as a firearm. That isn't a new sentiment. Also other branches such as the RCMP and CBSA have recognized the legitimacy, legal status and purpose or use of airsoft guns in Canada.

But I digress. Let's say the sky is falling, what do you expect to happen? How about a simultaneous arrest and execution of every known airsofter....no? Okay, then we'd see a legal change or shut down in all retailers, and then they'd ask all airsofter's to turn in their guns for destruction, may even award is a grace period of one year, etc. Or, the alternative is, that airsoft has been made more legal and more available due to its positive spread internationaly, and within Canada, and the government, including all concerned branches have become relaxed and lenient for a sensical coexistence. No, better to assume that one court ruling undoes all of the progress made on a whim, and because some guy is a jackass. Not only is nothing likely to change in a negative way because of this, this won't be the last court case of its kind or similar. I don't think the sky will fall then either.

But just incase, you better give me your guns before the RCMP get you, and go get a helmet and umbrella to block the sky from killing you. You could get a sticker for the side of your helmet that says "I need this".

[Cameron SS]

Originally Posted by venture

Cameron, didn't you acknowledge that low power air guns are exempt from the firearms act and some of the cc? In that case, would the mag limits also be exempt?

No. The exemption for sub 500 FPS Firearms found in section 84(3) specifically says that the FIREARM is exempt. No mention of magazines. This fact has been argued in court repeatedly and every single gun owner has lost. Magazines are not exempt from anything. The only thing that might save you is if the RCMP choose not enforce it, which for the time being, seems to be their intent.

Originally Posted by Dracheous

SCC can't "change" law at all. They can only enforce it as per interpretation of the government issued policies. They can "strike" a law down based on the legal definitions of that law in regards to its constitutional application.

Nothing in this "ruling" is new. And if you think this is contrived you should look at some bylaws around the country. In Ottawa by application of the cities definition of "firearm" a nailgun is prohibited from discharge with in city limits!

Care to provide a reference for that?

Originally Posted by Ricochet

This ruling is meaningless anyways. The guy is arguing and interpreting law, that in his eyes, makes our airsoft guns a completely different classification, and with them, more restricted rules of ownership. If it was true, the court case wouldn't be needed for that. Many of us remember when airsoft was illegal, or at least in the grey, how they couldn't be imported, retailers getting busted, clear receivers, etc. The laws were/are amended to give airsoft its own set of standards, so we can exist in Canada. Things have become less restricted and not more, period. This court case happened because some guy allegedly threatened another human being with an pellet gun, and therefore committed a criminal offense, and they are making sure the appropriate repercussions are met. That's what the court case is about, not airsoft. Then some guy from CGN comes over here and posts information that we have gone over, in fine detail, for over a decade, and isn't intuitive enough to realize that we airsoft owners exist in Canada legally for a reason.

.....FU$&@IN' DOH!!!

Was this meant to be a reasoned argument, or rhetoric?
At the absolute very least, regardless of what you think the ruling means in its subtleties, the fact that the supreme court of Canada upheld a ruling in Ontario and agreed with those reasons, means that it this application is now valid across Canada, and not just in Ontario.

The supreme court of Canada does not exist to waste its time and taxpayers money on meaningless rulings.

Look at the actual charges the guys was charged with. They were all Part 3 firearms charges, and not, true crimes, like assault, threats, etc.

S. 86 careless handling
S. 87 Pointing
S. 88 Possession for a purpose dangerous
S. 90 Carrying a concealed.

The defense argued not guilty because in order to be considered a firearm, an airgun must ALSO be a weapon. In order to be considered a weapon, you had to have INTENT TO USE IT AS SUCH, ie in a harmful way.

The ONCA said NO, intent is not required, airguns are ALWAYS firearms if they shoot more than 214. This means that anyone in possession of a +214 firearm is ALWAYS subject to the above sections, regardless of INTENT.

Airsoft has previously been subject to storage regs under 86(2). Possession for a purpose dangerous to the public peace requires intent regardless of the object, so isn't an issue either. Carrying concealed should be a no brainer, as long as your are transporting it according to the regs, it is not being 'carried'. The big red flag there should be pointing, which no longer requires intent to use as a weapon. Simply by virtue of being a firearm, you can not point it.

Originally Posted by rc_p120

So all of our airsoft guns less than 500fps but more than 214fps (read-just about all of them) are now considered real firearms.... How the fuck is this not a devastating blow to the airsoft community again? This was a Supreme Court of Canada decision not a twitter status.

Agreed, you can take what you will from the definition, and we can all it debate it until we are blue in the face. The one thing that this ruling ISN'T, is meaningless.

Originally Posted by Ricochet

The Supreme Court of Canada isn't going to war against every law abiding airsofter because some dude doing something stupid, that did not include the use of airsoft guns. How this may affect you? If you take an airsoft gun, pellet gun, BB gun, paintball gun, etc, and threaten someone with it, they'll likely lean in the same direction. This was a court case, nothing more, and in court cases they need to decide on clarification or else their case gets thrown out on a technicality. Any airsoft gun, or related device, used in a crime is treated as a firearm. That isn't a new sentiment. Also other branches such as the RCMP and CBSA have recognized the legitimacy, legal status and purpose or use of airsoft guns in Canada.

But I digress. Let's say the sky is falling, what do you expect to happen? How about a simultaneous arrest and execution of every known airsofter....no? Okay, then we'd see a legal change or shut down in all retailers, and then they'd ask all airsofter's to turn in their guns for destruction, may even award is a grace period of one year, etc. Or, the alternative is, that airsoft has been made more legal and more available due to its positive spread internationaly, and within Canada, and the government, including all concerned branches have become relaxed and lenient for a sensical coexistence. No, better to assume that one court ruling undoes all of the progress made on a whim, and because some guy is a jackass. Not only is nothing likely to change in a negative way because of this, this won't be the last court case of its kind or similar. I don't think the sky will fall then either.

But just in case, you better give me your guns before the RCMP get you, and go get a helmet and umbrella to block the sky from killing you. You could get a sticker for the side of your helmet that says "I need this".

Despite your personal insults, you raise some good points.

If you want to know how illegal airsoft items may be treated, look at how firearms owners have been treated under similar circumstances.

When the RCMP re-evaluated the status of a recent 'restricted' (read: registered) firearm of which there were only 50 in Canada, they sent notices to everyone by mail saying you have 30 days to surrender the firearm, or else you will be charged. In this case, due to registration, the RCMP knew where each and every gun was, and there weren't very many of them. Asides from two people who opted to challenge the notice in court, everyone else complied.

In a more recent example, when another firearm, a Non restricted firearm (read: unregistered) of which there are tens of thousands of them in Canada, was reclassified as prohibited, the RCMP could NOT send out notices cause they didn't know who owned what.

There are millions of various air soft, paintball, and pellet guns out there, and while the guns themselves are exempted from licensing etc, and that has not changed, by determining that these things are firearms, their mags are now probably illegal, and the thousands of canadians pointing one at someone else right now are probably committing criminal offences.

Obviously the RCMP do not have the resources to even begin to address this, and have no idea who owns what. No one is going to get visited by the RCMP, or receive any notice in the mail. This does not mean you are safe.

One thing the RCMP does not do, is act impulsively. There has only been two weeks since we have had this national level ruling. It could be months before the senior brass develops a policy on how to handle this.

As someone else already mentioned I think the Canary in the coal mine will be the retailers. If all of a sudden they are pulling 30 rd mags off the shelves, you'll know that things have started rolling.

I wouldn't go out and sell anything just yet, nor would I would go on a panicked shopping spree buying up all the mags while you can.

I also don't think an umbrella would be all that useful either, because if a significant portion of the sky does fall, it probably won't have sufficient mass to injure, but a large enough gap in the atmosphere could cause an increase in radiation or heat loss problems....

[ThunderCactus]

Didn't the supreme court specifically mention that airguns were firearms for the purpose of transport? The ruling isn't meaningless, but it doesn't affect airsoft, since we already safely transport all our guns, and it's not targeted AT airsofters. It's meant to put more charges on fucktards that carry them in the city.

The firearm act and CC outline what an uncontrolled firearm is, touch on air guns, make mention of exemptions from being firearms, but also mention that basically all things air gun, replica, uncontrolled, etc are still considered firearms when used in criminal activity.

214fps doesn't mean jack shit. Until they attach a joule limit to it, it's really just an ambiguous number.
366fps is still a minimum for import, and by extension, sale. You can still own a gun that shoots under 366fps, regardless of what the RCMP's opinion of the law is.
783fps on .20s is the upper limit before it becomes an actual controlled firearm. That's exceeding 500FPS AND 5.7joules

Police officers aren't robots. You think they're going to slap you with a shit ton of firearm charges just because you didn't put a trigger lock on a toy gun in a case on your way to a game?