Elitists -Newbies, please read

[Rock 'N' Roll Outlaw]

I find that a newbie that doesn't hear what (s)he wants calls everyone an elitist regardless of what they use. It just seems to be a defense mechanism for people that have their backs up against the wall with answers of "you need to spend more money than $100 to start playing airsoft". Just like schoolyard kids that call each other fags without the other person actually being a homo, just a defense mechanism for the first kid to try and feel superior for a brief fraction of a second.

Originally Posted by Crunchmeister

IMO, that's what noobs should do. There should be a forced period of at least a week (probably more) where a new user can read but can't post. And I'd still be all for locking down the noob tank so that noobs can start a thread, but only the OP and members who have been registered for over a certain amount of time should have the ability to post replies in the thread. That way, it would avoid issues of the blind leading the blind as it seems to happen so regularly.

Personally, I found this site in about July of 2007. I immediately recognized it as being a wealth of information. I read every sticky, and read everything that I could find of interest to me, and anything that I thought would be useful to know. I finally signed up for an account and started posting in November. By then, I already had a good foundation. I knew what was what and who was who (for the most part). I knew of the grey legal area of airsoft, I knew we couldn't import, etc.

Now I did post questions to stuff I didn't find answers for, and some were noob-ish questions. But I got some very friendly and helpful answers and was never flamed once. Why? Because I took the time to research, and when I did post a question, I made it apparent that I had searched before asking. That in itself goes a LONG way to avoid the usual hostility towards noobs. The only flaming I've ever received on this forum was at the hands of noobs who don't agree with my 'elitist' advice.

And it's ironic that I've been called an 'elitist' when I'm a big supporter of budget brands like JG and Echo 1. lol People's standards for elitism are pretty low, it seems.

[Skruface]

I propose a new ASC rule called Kalnaren's Law.

If one member, during the course of discussion, refers to another member as "elitist", any member can invoke Kalnaren's Law. At that point, the discussion of the topic at hand is immediately ended and the person who called another elitist is considered to have lost the debate.

For reference, see Godwin's Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[Frozen Tex]

Originally Posted by Skruface

I propose a new ASC rule called Kalnaren's Law.

If one member, during the course of discussion, refers to another member as "elitist", any member can invoke Kalnaren's Law. At that point, the discussion of the topic at hand is immediately ended and the person who called another elitist is considered to have lost the debate.

For reference, see Godwin's Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

You're such an elitist to suggest such a thing...

[surebet]

I had the exact same argument with biking equipement that I've been having on these boards for years. For example, I had a 250km run over 3 days as a summer course. Plenty of people signed on because, hey, easy course right?

People were told time and time again that there is a minimum equipement barrier that needs to be meet to enjoy the activity. Nothing fancy, but a 1000$+ investement still. People still showed up with beaten up 10 year old Canadian Tire "mountain" bikes and no bike pants. Guess what, these people didn't enjoy their trip, not one bit.

Same with airsoft! Sure, you can tag along and pretend to play, but you wont find it as enjoyable as you should because of shit gear and guns and I wont enjoy it because your lack of realism detracts from the simulation aspect of the sport.

Fuck, pay up, save up or shut up. It's that simple. Did you try to call Xbox 360 owners elitists just because they have the newest toy, all the while saying your PS2 can keep up? You'd get the same welcome than here with subpar gear.

[cerealmaniac]

good thread.... it's not uncommon to have keyboard warriors (myself included) who post things on the top of our heads... at the end it's all about personal preferences. I do not see the need why u had to justify yourself though.. i just think most of us have to think before posting.. thats it. now fanboys... thats another concern...

[notec]

Here is my story, take it for what it is............
I am new to airsoft, but I did not join to attend the games. I joined because I love the guns. I have collected guns longer than some of you have been alive ;-) Yes I have a cheap Wallyworld m4. And yes I bought it to learn the workings of these guns.

I am a machinist and work at an oil refinery, so I can afford to buy a high end gun.......or make it for that matter :-) But im not going to jump in head first. Ill work my way around,trying various guns.

Something to keep in mind.........not every newbie buys cheap guns because they cant afford it......and cut some of the kids a break, they are the future of this sport you love so much. And a few of them have helped this old guy learn some new tricks....lol

[kalnaren]

Originally Posted by notec

Here is my story, take it for what it is............
I am new to airsoft, but I did not join to attend the games. I joined because I love the guns. I have collected guns longer than some of you have been alive ;-) Yes I have a cheap Wallyworld m4. And yes I bought it to learn the workings of these guns.

I am a machinist and work at an oil refinery, so I can afford to buy a high end gun.......or make it for that matter :-) But im not going to jump in head first. Ill work my way around,trying various guns.

Something to keep in mind.........not every newbie buys cheap guns because they cant afford it......and cut some of the kids a break, they are the future of this sport you love so much. And a few of them have helped this old guy learn some new tricks....lol

Our issue isn't so much people buying cheap guns. If you know what you're getting, the choice is yours. We simply try to inform.

Our issue comes when people (mostly kids) get angry at us when we tell them a cheap gun is exactly that -cheap. I'd say once a week we get someone who throws a hissey-fit when they think their $150 AEG is all that and we tell them it's about as low as you can go and still call it an airsoft gun. We recommend higher end guns so they can have something they can actually enjoy for more than a game before it breaks.

Cheap guns are excellent for project guns or for tinkering with. A lot of people have bought Krakens and used them as a base for an AEG that's better than most stock guns. However most n00bs lack the skills to fix or repair said guns when they break -hence why we recommend ones that don't break as often.

As for the wallymart M4.. hey.. that's where I started

[m102404]

Originally Posted by notec

Here is my story, take it for what it is............
I am new to airsoft, but I did not join to attend the games. I joined because I love the guns. I have collected guns longer than some of you have been alive ;-) Yes I have a cheap Wallyworld m4. And yes I bought it to learn the workings of these guns.

I am a machinist and work at an oil refinery, so I can afford to buy a high end gun.......or make it for that matter :-) But im not going to jump in head first. Ill work my way around,trying various guns.

Something to keep in mind.........not every newbie buys cheap guns because they cant afford it......and cut some of the kids a break, they are the future of this sport you love so much. And a few of them have helped this old guy learn some new tricks....lol

That's cool. Go with it if it does the trick for you. Some have decribed the Kraken as a 3D learning tool for airsoft.

You're a machinist right?...so you've seen some decent calipers and micrometers. So take a nice Mitutoyo mic and compare it to a $10 special at the local auto store. They do the same thing in function...the cheaper one works good enough for most (certainly for a hobbyist like me)...the more expensive one might not really be the best value. But the Mitutoyo is nicer and if you had to buy tooling/stuff again...what would you spend your hard earned money on? And to continue the analogy...you can't measure much very accurately with the 6/$10 pack of plastic venier calipers that are basically disposable (I've got 5 of the 6 left...and wish I had my $10 back ).

So there's NICE...good enough...and just plain not good enough for anything realistic.

If you had to setup your own machine shop, what would you choose?...a big cart full of Canadian Tire Jobmate stuff, or fewer but nicer quality (buy once) stuff? I'd bet that you'd lean more towards the latter.

Now...if some guy is asking you what to get 'cause he's just starting out and needs everything...and you reply "Well...you should avoid the $99 Mastercraft Drill Press and don't waste your money on the Jobmate 99pc socket set cause the tolerances are large and the socket wrench is shoddy..."...then all of a sudden you look like an elitist.

[L473ncy]

Actually when I started out snowboarding I just rented. I didn't go out and buy a $100 board, cheap bindings and cheap boots. I rented it first and decided I liked it.

There are a few reasons why I rented instead of buying straight away, one of them being I didn't want to drop $250 on a board setup and have it break on me or be really cheap quality and not enjoy it. I'm not saying that rental stuff is that good either but chances are it's slightly higher quality than what's available for $250 and it's only ~$35 to rent so why not?

IMO renting first and then buying is what people should be doing but no one seems to think so. Why use something that multiple other people have used when I can get "my own" and own it rather than having it for one day; is probably the line of thinking most n00bs have. It doesn't work that way, the mountains that rent stuff out usually perform maintenance and such on their equipment so part of the price is paying for labour to tune/repair the equipment.

In conclusion 3 years later, after my first boarding experience, I picked up a used board package that was worth a pretty penny but I really like it and it's "high quality", instead of me going from low quality board to low quality board every few years this one is probably going to last me a lot of seasons.

I guess though that I'm one of those people who have the line of thinking where you try it out with some rented mediocre equipment and if you like it go all in (my mountain bike setup is probably worth a good $2000). I have tried other things like skiing, I like it but not enough to dump the money required for some relatively mediocre equipment but at least I tried it out on some mediocre equipment and decided whether or not I liked it than some cheap ass setup and hating it. I still ski however when I do it I just borrow my dads equipment (mediocre equipment which keeps me satisfied).

Where was I going with this rant? I don't actually know but the thing I guess I'm trying to say is that people should probably rent first with some mediocre equipment before they go all in rather than getting low quality stuff and going from gun to gun to gun because it's cheap and you either can't repair it or if it's repairable the cost to repair it is more than getting another cheap one.

EDIT: PS: @ notec: If you're a machinist you're probably lightyears ahead of some of these noobs who ask "w0t gun iz best" and a few days later "halp meh I broked mah gun". You've go the mechanical knowledgebase to be able to do some of these things and figure out how these systems work and such and most likely the tools to do the job. Whereas most of these noobs are 13 or 14 year olds who at most have some experience from shop class (usually not) and no formal training in mechanical systems.

[notec]

I agree with what you guys are saying..........but for the record.........if someone asked me whats the best tool(gun) for them to buy, my first question is "what can you afford?"....lol

Ive only been on this forum for a short while.........I have seen how things are and have adapted. But thats because I have been around long enough to be a good judge of people. I can see how the elitist title can be thrown around, just as the n00b is.........

Once people realize we are pretty much all on the same page, terms like n00b and elitist will fade into the background.............until then take everything with a grain of salt, just dont get it in your eyes ;-)

[Rock 'N' Roll Outlaw]

The biggest problem tends to be when someone asks if a kraken or broxa is good. We respond with a resounding "no", in no uncertain terms. Then when the first person freaks out because we don't give them the answer they want, the elitist tag gets thrown and person A is made to look like a victim of the ASC monster. What needs to change is newer peoples attitudes when we say gun A is crap from our collective experience, and make recommendations for ones that will be less of a monetary burden in the long run. Not for OUR benefit for theirs. Whats the point of asking a public forum their opinion, then acting like children when given just what they asked for?

[notec]

Yup........some people dont like the answer they are given........

I blame TV and Rap music...........lol

All you can do is be honest........what happens from there kinda depends on how the person perceives the answer.........some will take it and learn from it......others wont.

Best thing to do is smile and move on to the next post.

[Donster]

ya i started out renting as well. i knew what i wanted, i just had to save up.

[m102404]

Originally Posted by notec

.....until then take everything with a grain of salt, just dont get it in your eyes ;-)

That's gold.

[venture]

I agree that some peeps don't like the answer they get so they try to change it.

I fear that when they start to spout this "elitist" argument that often they should be saying "rude". On the internet many people just can't help themselves and become very rude. It even has a name: "flame". There are some of those "rude" types on this board. I am not saying that their opinions are wrong, they just cannot seem to express themselves without being insulting and rude. We could name the greatest of these, but instead I'll name some that I think are good answerers: Latency comes to mind quickly, always there to give an informative answer without the "elitism". If the asker doesn't want to accept the answer he doesn't go into a tirade. It is simply a matter of "so be it, don't take my advice", and move on. Another one is KOS-MOS, always with great answers. As I write this I realize that almost everyone on this board provides good answers. The "rudies" are few.

The staff of this board always seem to answer questions without "elitism" or rudeness. Come to mind quickly would be: Drake, Tokyo Seven, ILLusion.