See through guns and the death of "airsoft"

[Janus]

The point is don't try for headshots and don't brag about headshots because it makes one sound like a fucking idiot.

/end derailment

[MrRiches]

I think ASC should accept the new players with the clearsoft as I find that the majority of the time New Airsofters in the community along with their clearsoft guns are a) More responsible as they are not cocky like most of the more seasoned players tend to be. and b) they out perform the old guys with their cheap clearsoft. I think some "Old guys" are just upset that some kid can outperform them with $200 of equipment vs. their $1000+. I do agree that unprepared players are a pain, but I as do most other players put up with them as they are our future of the sport and we should help them. As far as clearsoft killing the sport... I don't see that happening... we just have more entry level players then ever before and they will eventually buy the higher grade guns. I started off with a P22 walther pistol... thats what got me hooked... since then I've spent thousands into airsoft but it all started with clearsoft. The only thing I don't like about clearsoft is that it takes away from the simulation aspect, but I'm more interested in having fun not about what the next guys gun looks like and I deal with it.

[Metternich]

Originally Posted by Able1

Why don't people enforce no headshots at all than, if so many people hate it so much why does'nt that become a rule at games? Im pretty sure the people that took the headshots on me had no idea they were goin for my head perhaps bad hop up or something.When i get shot in the face should i be angry?

Headshots are allowed, but it is considered poor taste and etiquette to take them (as they are kind of dangerous to the target). It is considered EXTREMELY poor etiquette to BRAG about it, that's why people are cunty about your post. Also don't mistaken good players for skilled players. There are plenty of players that can't shoot for shit that I love playing with. Good players are ones that are SAFE, RESPECTFUL, and generally FUN to play with. Not guys that can snap off head shots 200 feet. Attitude, personality and safety are more important than skill in a new player.

[vatek]

Blaming the guns for the quality of new players is absurd. There were stupid kids with TM guns in 2006, and there are stupid kids with clearsoft now.

It's getting to the point where I think any change to the status quo is perceived as a threat. JG and other "Chinasoft" brands were considered a threat to the "integrity" of Canadian airsoft when they first arrived, and I'm sure anyone who has been around since the Escort/JC/Kokusai days perceived Tokyo Marui the same way in those days as well.

A number of retailers have worked their asses off to find a Canadian airsoft solution that does not involve the retailer getting his ass thrown in jail, and a large percentage of this community has responded to such a breakthrough with upturned noses and derisiveness just because the goddamned receiver is clear. That's the real joke here.

[safx]

Originally Posted by Able1

Why don't people enforce no headshots at all than, if so many people hate it so much why does'nt that become a rule at games? Im pretty sure the people that took the headshots on me had no idea they were goin for my head perhaps bad hop up or something.When i get shot in the face should i be angry?

Cause they happen by accident.
And because some can't host for
shit.

If your at TAC3 and I hit your
mask/face/head, it was because
you came into my line of fire or
a badly aimed shot went upward.
I will always wait til you expose
more of your self before taking
the shot. If I only see your head
then you can't shoot me now can
you?

[m102404]

Originally Posted by Metternich

Headshots are allowed [at some events], but it is considered [to be in very] poor taste and etiquette to take them (as they are kind of dangerous to the target). It is considered EXTREMELY poor etiquette to BRAG about it, that's why people are cunty about your post. Also don't mistaken good players for skilled players. There are plenty of players that can't shoot for shit that I love playing with. Good players are ones that are SAFE, RESPECTFUL, and generally FUN to play with. Not guys that can snap off head shots 200 feet. Attitude, personality and safety are more important than skill in a new player.

Thank you. (pardon the slight edits)

- some of the best guys are the ones who blast the wall next to your head and yell at you not to do stupid things like that...instead of cracking one off on your noggin.

[mcguyver]

G&G used to be the bastard child of airsoft guns. Their quality between ICS, G&P, Marui would leave them in a distant 4th place everytime. But it's all good now because the receiver is clear, and the other brands are no longer available?

How many milsims are well attended in Calgary anymore? How many has Gish cancelled due to lack of attendance? With more available guns, attendance should increase, right? How come a serious milsim like Op Cold Front gets 60 players from across Canada, yet 200 can show up to a Battlefield game?

The changing attitudes amongst players new and old has been directly as a result of the changing marketplace for hardware. Anyone who thinks this isn't so isn't rational.

[vatek]

Can we please move away from the semantics of a pointless headshot argument and back on topic?

[zone 69]

Originally Posted by safx

Then don't take the bloody shot, noob.

Trigger control is something people
use very little of. If you don't want
to receive such a shot then don't
inflict it on someone. Airsoft isn't
a video game where you gain rank
from "kills". You'll gain more respect
from players by not injuring them.

I think the days of Trigger control are long gone. I had someone shot me point blank in the head with his pistol in the safe zone. Lucky I did not get hurt do to my full Coverage PB Mask & kill rag that caught the BB before it hit my head. And this said player was part of the club before I joined the club.

I really dont think its the Cansoft its the influx of poor quality players thats becoming overwhelming.

[vatek]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

G&G used to be the bastard child of airsoft guns. Their quality between ICS, G&P, Marui would leave them in a distant 4th place everytime. But it's all good now because the receiver is clear, and the other brands are no longer available?

I believe the key phrase here is "used to be". It's not 2006 anymore. Given the endless discussions of legality and grey areas that we both have taken part in on these forums over the years, I would have assumed that any measure taken to take airsoft out of the grey area it has been in for a decade would be seen as a good thing. G&G just happened to be the manufacturer to step up to the plate.

Originally Posted by mcguyver

How many milsims are well attended in Calgary anymore? How many has Gish cancelled due to lack of attendance? With more available guns, attendance should increase, right? How come a serious milsim like Op Cold Front gets 60 players from across Canada, yet 200 can show up to a Battlefield game?

You really can't compare a hardcore 24 hour milsim (which was more or less invite only, by the way) to a widely publicized yearly game that is basically DESIGNED to be friendly to new players. I won't argue about the lack of milsims in Calgary, but I think after the Battlefield games became so wildly successful that the attitude toward milsims has changed.

Originally Posted by mcguyver

The changing attitudes amongst players new and old has been directly as a result of the changing marketplace for hardware. Anyone who thinks this isn't so isn't rational.

I can agree with this on some level, but I reject the doomsayers that predict Cansoft to be the death knell for Canadian airsoft. The same people were saying the same thing about JG guns in 2007, and I'm pretty sure old-timers from the early gas gun days said the same thing when Tokyo Marui first introduced their AEGs. I would rather have a proliferation of LEGAL Cansoft guns than have another retailer facing jail time.

Do airsofters in other provinces really have people showing up to games with $100 100% clear Canadian Tire guns? I have yet to see that at a Calgary-area game.

[.JET]

I must have skipped like three pages because the following was on page two I think. Sorry if this is off-topic, but it's my opinion.

Originally Posted by dpvu

Calgary has seen a big jump in player-base due to clearsoft. The number of new people who sign up on the JOC boards and actually get out to a game is way higher than it was just last year. The clear guns actually perform quite well and you can't even tell unless people are loading up. We went from only maybe 2-3 outdoor games a week during the summer to a skirm almost every week with indoor games 2-3 days every week as well. Without exception, the new players have had a blast and I'm sure many of them will be throwing money into the airsoft sinkhole in no time.

The "concentration" of new players is higher which does worry some people but I think given the nature of airsoft, cansoft is a good way for people to ease into the sport. As a relatively new player, good clearsoft wasn't around when I first started and I wish it was. It would have been easier on the pocket book and I would have been able to buy gear with the money I saved. For example, I used a black vest over a multicam BDU for a few games because I couldn't afford another vest.

Game organizers: If you want serious players, make that clear. A lot of people spend their money on guns (let's face it, the cansofts are still pricey) and don't have a lot left over for BDU, vest etc. In Calgary we run a lot of skirms on smaller fields where I would say jeans are perfectly acceptable. Skirms are where a new player should learn and pick the sport up. We do however run some milsims and I think a gear requirement for those is also acceptable or maybe even a requirement of having one season under their belt.

I understand where the "elitists" come from. You don't want the sport to get watered down by new players. Yes, unprepared players can be a drag on a game (especially when they get dehydrated and get heat stroke). The solution is simple, let the new players run around at skirms and make gear and experience requirements for your games.

I need to agree with dpvu. You can't expect newer players to have the same amount of gear or gun quality as people who have been in Airsoft for years. Don't forget, we're in Canada. Guns that are sold in Canada for 400$ are sold in the US for 180$ - and they are full metal in the US. Canadian laws are not friendly to newer players and I think this is something veteran players need to understand.

I'm new to the sport, but not to the profession (soldier). I know how important quality of equipment is, but I am also only 20 years old. I don't make 50K$ a year and live in my mother's house to be able to invest 10K$ in guns and equipment. That's the same story for every teenager/young adult who wants to enter the sport. I understand the frustration of older players, but you need to take into account that the sport is expensive, and unless you only want veterans in the community, you need to be accepting of new people. I've been to two games, and I was decently prepared. But for other newbies, it was a disaster because of older players' attitudes.

You cannot expect the sport to grow if you do not accept the responsibility of tutoring new people. It's the way it is. The sport is complicated, moreso with Canadian laws. Be appreciative of the fact people actually purchase lower-end guns (150$ is still money, do not simmer down efforts because they are not as big as yours right now) and understand that in time, they too will understand that the more money you inject into the sport, the better the quality of yours gun(s).

I might be coming down aggressive (for a new person around here) but frankly, someone has to do it. I'm an elitist too, but I simply don't have the money to buy higher-quality equipment right now. I've spent 800$ for two different G&G guns, which is already something most if not all other teens wouldn't do. Yes, my rifles are smoked. But they still shoot very well for my current standards, they still have gone through games fine. Not everyone will upgrade before their first game. Some don't even buy a gun before their first games.

Bottom line, there is no way to know either unless you ask, or go to games and see with your own eyes how things work. Give newer players a chance to catch up to you guys. Because if you don't, more people will shy away from the sport because of "arrogant assholes" (was it?) who think they're the shit. First impressions are important, and I bet they were important for all of you too, when you first started out. Don't forget what it feels like to be new. You can't be as open as if you were a seasoned player. I'm still shy at games because I simply don't know anyone. It's normal. It's the way things go. In time, I will bond with other people and I will learn more about Airsoft from them. But that is only at the condition that they agree to take me into their circle.

It's kind of like a new job, really. You get in, you see the older people who look down on you from their high horse and you begin to shy away, unless you gather the guts to confront them in hopes that they will accept you. And if things go badly, you hope for new people to come as quickly as possible so you can make your own little circle.

Is this what you want the Canadian Airsoft community to be like? Cliques everywhere? Or a giant community that helps each other. Sure sounds like a big project, and from what I see, it's well established. I say, stick through the hardships of having to deal with people with lower-end equipment and make them feel welcome. In time, they will learn to appreciate the community and will decide if they want to dish out the money to get better equipment.

It's all an investment, in the end.

//Edit.

Originally Posted by MrRiches

I think ASC should accept the new players with the clearsoft as I find that the majority of the time New Airsofters in the community along with their clearsoft guns are a) More responsible as they are not cocky like most of the more seasoned players tend to be. and b) they out perform the old guys with their cheap clearsoft. I think some "Old guys" are just upset that some kid can outperform them with $200 of equipment vs. their $1000+. I do agree that unprepared players are a pain, but I as do most other players put up with them as they are our future of the sport and we should help them. As far as clearsoft killing the sport... I don't see that happening... we just have more entry level players then ever before and they will eventually buy the higher grade guns. I started off with a P22 walther pistol... thats what got me hooked... since then I've spent thousands into airsoft but it all started with clearsoft. The only thing I don't like about clearsoft is that it takes away from the simulation aspect, but I'm more interested in having fun not about what the next guys gun looks like and I deal with it.

Thanks, that emphasizes my point(s).

[henchman21]

The problem with a lot of new players is a safety issue, poor to non-existent muzzle control, basic weapons handling. These are things that need to be impressed upon the new arrivals to the community, and that the community as a whole will not brook any kind of unsafe or stupid behavior. The team I play on trains all members to the same standard. With practice and patience, even someone who never picked up a super soaker can be as proficient as someone who served for years in the combat arms.
I've seen the value of training, both in the CF and in the sport, so maybe we as a whole should stress training these"dumb kids" to unlearn bad habits, and to make good shooters out of them
That's my 2 cents

[pusangani]

Originally Posted by MrRiches

I think ASC should accept the new players with the clearsoft as I find that the majority of the time New Airsofters in the community along with their clearsoft guns are a) More responsible as they are not cocky like most of the more seasoned players tend to be. and b) they out perform the old guys with their cheap clearsoft. I think some "Old guys" are just upset that some kid can outperform them with $200 of equipment vs. their $1000+. I do agree that unprepared players are a pain, but I as do most other players put up with them as they are our future of the sport and we should help them. As far as clearsoft killing the sport... I don't see that happening... we just have more entry level players then ever before and they will eventually buy the higher grade guns. I started off with a P22 walther pistol... thats what got me hooked... since then I've spent thousands into airsoft but it all started with clearsoft. The only thing I don't like about clearsoft is that it takes away from the simulation aspect, but I'm more interested in having fun not about what the next guys gun looks like and I deal with it.

this from the guy with the kiddie friendly airsoft field in his sig...

It's not that older guys are bitter that younger players can outdo them with cheaper gear, it's the mentality behind the whole cheapness that's bringing down the quality of the game, the whole t-shirt and jeans with a hicap thing just kills it, it's no better than paintball at that point.

and you would be surprised how switched on some of those old guys are, following Tys and his team at Broadsword was amazing

[Brian McIlmoyle]

The issue is not "clearsoft" I personally could not care less what colour the gun is .. as had been said.. gear don't make the shooter.. It's a tool nothing more.

The issue is the cost to get started.

In my other, other life, I teach Martial arts.. One of the things we do is fight with steel weapons in Armour to submission.

The bar to entry to that level of participation is $5000.00 or more in equipment and 3+ years of training.

If you get through that.. there is a pretty good chance that you will be a suitable opponenet , well trained and properly equiped .

I would not hazard my life in a fight with someone who just shows up with kit and says , lets have a go, I don't know the effectiveness of their equipment.. and I have no idea of their level of training...

now to extend that to AS, the bar to entry with the proliferation of readily accessable inexpensive guns is such that it requires almost no committment of any kind to participate... "tourists" of the most superficial kind can participate.. they don't give a rats ass about the rules , and don't much care about safety because , "Hey their just there to have some fun"

My point is .. we need another way to raise the bar.. as the price point to get equiped is not doing it any more and that is not likely to change.

So this is not a "I hate clearsoft" rant

This is a "how do we deal with the flood of new players, while maintaining the safety and integrity of the activity"

[vatek]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

now to extend that to AS, the bar to entry with the proliferation of readily accessable inexpensive guns is such that it requires almost no committment of any kind to participate... "tourists" of the most superficial kind can participate.. they don't give a rats ass about the rules , and don't much care about safety because , "Hey their just there to have some fun"

I don't know how it works in Toronto but here in Calgary, players of this type usually don't last very long on the field before they're told to get the hell out.