WANT NV? READ THIS A Buyers Guide to NVGs (Night Vision)

[kullwarrior]

Long story short, for folks that want to get correct info:

Goto http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/18_.html and read up writing made by a user named "cj7hawk". He's a well respected austrialian user on the night vision section of the forum. The guy has actual experience with US image intensifer (From thin-filmed to filmless), Photonis XD4, XR5 (not sure about INTENS), Kato'd Gen 3 (Russian), Harder Digital Gen 3 (German). Both Azathoth and I frequently use his posting as referencing sources.

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by BenG

Im aware my spelling is terrible, I however did forget this was the internet, thank you for reminding me in the most "internetly" possible way.

Welcome to the internet, where if you don't know what you're talking about someone smarter than you will come shut you down.

[BenG]

actually it is correct information, zims info is also correct but not in context, this is a buyers guide not a complete guide to everything night vision

additionally unless you have useful information, questions, or have found actual errors, lets stop monopolizing the top of the page with this post

[Derpystronk]

Originally Posted by BenG

actually it is correct information, zims info is also correct but not in context

I really respect Zim's and Steve's input. While we can always find points to disagree on and target opinions of others, they tend to get most of the info correct - at that point we are just discussing either minor details or semantics. The meat and potatoes is there and that is what count, and the extra discussion adds to it and provides context.

Some of your advice is spot on and tends to come from numerous sources on the internet... But some of it doesn't, and it's stuff like this that concerns me.

Originally Posted by BenG

-omni I, II, III tubes are hard if not impossible to find and are not worth your time and money if you manage to find one, modern day gen 2 is superior in almost every aspect (except photosensitivity)
-omni VII tubes may also be referred to as "pinnical" or "filmless"
-omni VIII tubes may be referred to as filmless or pinnical and are often incorrectly reffered to as "gen 4"

Not only is the information for the OMNI VII / VIII just flat out incorrect, the first line is what concerns me most. Yeah OMNI 1 and 2 are not great, but you've lumped OMNI 3 in there. Those tubes are actually alright. I've used them, I've killed dudes in Airsoft with them. They are alright. They can be quite functional.

Yet you've just said they are not worth their time and money, and instead to buy "modern gen 2" since it's better in almost every aspect... Except it's actual sensitivity...? Well, hold on, which is it? I personally prefer a noisier tube that is more sensitive in lower light - but I know other people have a different opinion. For me I'd rather see something than a really crisp, black circle because my tube isn't sensitive enough to get a picture. But this is my opinion and others can argue. It's great and informative to those reading.

And I can tell you for a fact "modern gen 2" - you know, like the stuff you buy commercially from any number of retailers - will actually under perform compared to an OMNI 3 tube and is priced significantly higher to boot. Your advice is now in the realm of being dangerous, as you are advising people to spend more money on what could be significantly less performance. The good Gen 2 that is dope and performs on par with Gen 3? You have to know where to get it, know where to buy it, and be ready for it costing a bunch of money, cause it's definitely not in the realm of OMNI 3 hand me downs.

I think people are coming in and trying to provide advice. There is absolutely 0 reason to get defensive over it. You wrote this guide to help people, and what everyone is doing by adding to this thread is also trying to help people. It's a collaborative effort. Everyone is free to contribute, thus why it's called a discussion forum and why you posted it on one. It all provides information to potential buyers which is the entire point of making a buyers guide.

Unless of course you wrote this guide just to sound smart, and even then Zim's comments about the writing & grammar are still accurate.

[BenG]

Ill update that, where on earth did you find an omni 3 tube even? I do suppose I could have been a bit less sarky in my response to zim, I will go through the main thread after my exams this week and check the spelling and wording as I do recognize it is very rough. If omni VII and omni VIII tubes are not pinnical tubes, then what would a pinnical tube be, I was under the impression that omni VII and omni VIII where manufactured with thin film, and in the case of omni VIII sometimes without film? the equivilant non contract tube with similar specs?

[Derpystronk]

Originally Posted by BenG

Ill update that, where on earth did you find an omni 3 tube even?

You gotta know which rocks to turn over. But there are a few floating around I've gotten my hands on over the years and I can tell you for a fact they stomp any Armasight trash you can buy within 1,000 dollars of what they run for

I have a very low opinion of "commercial" grade Gen 2 units. If the Armasight and ATN type units were priced appropriately, I'd be all for them. They really need to be in the 1500-2000 dollar range (closer to 1500 than 2000) but they are actually priced at 3,000+ which is almost a straight rip off at that point.

We had a legendary Gen 2 unit floating around awhile back that GOA got a hold of. Was below 1k, and offered great performance for that price point. We all lost track of that thing and god knows where it is now, but that thing is an absolute relic and above all else, a good deal.

It's why I'm very particular in what Gen 2 units I buy, and I try to maximize the dollar to value ratio as much as I can - something that has become increasingly harder to do in the last year or two because of the CAD compared to the USD.

But as I said, throwing around half assed advice when you are kind of inadvertantly admitting you have never even seen the tubes you are speaking of - it's dangerous. You are potentially altering peoples purchasing decisions with incorrect information. Someone might waste money because you got something wrong.

If omni VII and omni VIII tubes are not pinnical tubes, then what would a pinnical tube be, I was under the impression that omni VII and omni VIII where manufactured with thin film, and in the case of omni VIII sometimes without film? the equivilant non contract tube with similar specs?

Pinnacle tube is a brand name of a line of tubes from a specific Manufacturer (ITT, now known as Harris) - the OMNI contract tubes are, well, made to the minimum specifications outlined in the Government contracts. A tube has to meet the minimum specs in the OMNI contract to be approved for the batch, if it doesn't, well the Gov didn't want it. Those tubes don't get thrown in the trash. They have to usually be sold as something else. I don't know if to call a tube an OMNI [whatever] tube it has to be produced under that contract, or be a contract overrun or whatever, but I do know you can't call it an OMNI [whatever] tube if it doesn't meet those specs. There are a number of Pinnacle tubes that are well below the minimum specs outlined in the omnibus contracts. They are still usable tubes, but, you know... Not an OMNI tube.

[pestobanana]

Nick has been around the expensive toy scene for a long time. What you're seeing is the difference between someone that ACTUALLY knows stuff and someone that has read articles/forum posts but doesn't really know what he's talking about. I'm no expert, I entered the NOD club less than a year ago. I try to ask questions more often than I lecture, to the point where Chris, Steve and Nick probably get annoyed.

Seems like one of your key problem is word choice. You seem to get inclusive and exclusive meanings confused. You stated OMNI VII and VIII tubes are also known as Pinnacle or filmless. That is not correct, as you are stating that all OMNI VII or VIII contract tubes are either Pinnacle or filmless, which is not true. Pinnacle is a line of tubes made by ITT/Exelis which also makes shit like Everest tubes. L3 also makes contract tubes, they are not Pinnacle. Not all Pinnacle tubes are OMNI VII or VIII. There are also OMNI VI Pinnacle tubes.

Filmless tubes have been around for a while. MX10160B ANVIS tubes were made both filmless and with thin film, depending on the manufacturer. This was as early as OMNI V.

Again, that chart that from AR15.com is a list of minimums, not average. If a tube is made with a contract in mind but does not meet the minimum specs, I'm pretty sure they are sold off to the civilian market.

[BenG]

I can agree to that.

I should clear this up, because a few people have asked now, I have used: DVS-8 (russian gen 3 was outstanding for a russian product, id put it slightly below omni 6), D300 SHP (photonis XD-4), yukon spartan with rifle kit (the only gen 1 I would ever touch again), I owned a sightmark ghost hunter 1x24 would not recommend, and I currently own a GS-14, its good for the price you pay, not as good as a photonis XD-4 in terms of S/R and resolution but has significantly less image distortion (fish bowling in the outer edges). I have looked through a variety of other tubes, ANVIS-9s, D300 st, another couple of D300 SHPs, PBS-14, omni 6 pvs-14, a pvs-7, a couple other pvs-14s, some other misc gen 1 units

That makes sense, it would be fair then to say that pinnical tubes are non contract thin film tubes. I was under the impression that any thin filmed tube was considered "pinnical" technology

[pestobanana]

Originally Posted by BenG

That makes sense, it would be fair then to say that pinnical tubes are non contract thin film tubes. I was under the impression that any thin filmed tube was considered "pinnical" technology

Please read... He did not say all Pinnacle tubes are non contract tubes. Pinnacle is just a line. Some were delivered under an OMNI contract, some fell short of minimum specs and were not.

[Derpystronk]

Originally Posted by BenG

I can agree to that.

I should clear this up, because a few people have asked now, I have used: DVS-8 (russian gen 3 was outstanding for a russian product, id put it slightly below omni 6), D300 SHP (photonis XD-4), yukon spartan with rifle kit (the only gen 1 I would ever touch again), I owned a sightmark ghost hunter 1x24 would not recommend, and I currently own a GS-14, its good for the price you pay, not as good as a photonis XD-4 in terms of S/R and resolution but has significantly less image distortion (fish bowling in the outer edges).

Okay this is what I mean dude. You say it's below OMNI 6, but have you seen an OMNI 5 in Person? And OMNI 4? I have seen aviation OMNI 4 tubes that are almost indistinguishable from OMNI 7 tubes. They are ridiculously good. Or do you just mean it's darker, and in what qualities? Raw sensitivity? Resolution? Signal to Noise? A combination of all 3? What makes it "below Omni 6"?

You mention the D300 SHP has an Photonis XD-4, but did you actually see if it was an XD-4 (or have something in writing) or was it one of their numerous commercial grade tubes? I know Photonis offloads a lot of commercial stuff on the US market but not so much with the XD4. Most D300's with SHP I know are using Photonis commercial or old school DEP SuperGen tubes.

And then you say the Photonis XD-4, a high end military grade tube on the international market, has edge distortion? Are you kidding me? Compared to a GS14 housing with what tube is inside? What did you get, what price did you pay? That is some critical information to provide if you are going to knock down a high end, high cost tube such as an XD-4.

This is actually mind boggling and I'm convinced you have zero practical experience or academic knowledge on this subject. It was shaky at first but we were along and willing to help. You trashing an XD-4 compared to some shit tier tube thrown into a GS-14 is all the proof anyone needs. You appear to know very little and are almost making stuff up at this point. You should stop, get some time behind these units and do significantly more research before trying to help people in how they spend their money. It's their money, not yours. You are doing a disservice to this community by offering advice on a subject you have almost limited understanding of.

I'm going to withdraw from this thread as it's clear that no matter how much people contribute in building this thread up, the very foundation is critically flawed. I'm letting this post now serve as a warning: anyone who is seriously looking at buying NVG's can direct questions to EOD Steve, Pestobanana, myself, c3sk, ThunderCactus, docholiday - or anyone else in the NV crowd. You would get more accurate information and a much clearer picture of how your needs might translate into a purchase you can be happy with.

[BenG]

If you, and others feel that this thread is detrimental, then I would say that someone who can should unsticky this thread

[pestobanana]

Now that I've actually gone back and read the original "guide" posts, I'm wondering how the fuck it got stickied in the first place. Description of auto gating is not even correct, description of OMNI contracrs not correct, and WTF is a Wilcox LG-34 LOL. You mean... L4 G24? The shit I actually run and have experience with? And as Delta stated, extremely questionable tube comparisons. I've actually compared a Pinnacle tube with a failed mil-spec XR4 in dense forest with overcast conditions.

[c3sk]

I think there is some good information here. BenG was trying to help the community and certainly should not be ostracized for it.

Separating the basic purchase information from the misinformation at this point would probably be not worth the trouble, especially since more than half the information comes from outdated sources linked on AR-15.com where a large majority of the community doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.