City of Markham Ontario bans all replica firearm sales with new by-law 2012-196

[talon]

they were the militant anti-violence crowd, obviously. don't know you guns kill people?

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Jimski

wow that happened to you for airsoft? these persons must have been pretty angry against plastic guns, wtf?
l

These were people from this community who did not like my efforts to bring a more public face to this activity.

[Janus]

I sincerely hope these people have never shown their face at an event since.

Seriously, what the fuck.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

well lets not wander too far off topic,

it happened a few years ago now.. and a lot has changed.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

This sport won't "grow" by any other means than more players .. more players logically result in more incidents .. more incidents will result in more legislative action at the local level..

Federally .. the government has sorted out their approach to airsoft guns.. and In my opinion we have a pretty good situation now with respect to access and pricing.. the airsoft market and community is Booming which is resulting in the increase in the public eye.

Id like to think I'be had a hand in that.. I've been a vocal proponent for this activity since 2005.. I've put myself out there in public and stood up for our activity.. I use MY LEGAL NAME in this forum. and been on National television and in national newspapers advocating for this community, and I have the lumps to prove it..

How many times have you had people threaten to rape your wife.. and burn down your house for your activities advocating for this community?

it seems to me YOU are all talk

As soon as you require a license to do a thing you hand control to the state.. who can eliminate that access at it's whim.. Legislative control of this activity at a national / federal level is exactly what we don't want.


the UK model was a "take it or leave it" last ditched effort to keep some access to airsoft guns in that country.. it's not a model to follow.. it's a cautionary tale to avoid.

The way things are now is frankly better than it has EVER BEEN in Canada regarding the use and access to airsoft guns, and the proliferation of legal venues to use them. I believe that some of the risks I have taken and the work I have done has contributed to this state of affairs. ( maybe I'm fooling myself..I don't know)

The FACT the municipalities are singling out airsoft guns in legislation is proof positive that Airsoft is no longer in the closet but well into the public eye. We have what we wanted.. but there is a downside.. evidenced by local legislation such as noted above.

I'm sorry but there is NO WAY to make this activity palatable to the majority of Canadians.. they don't get it.. they never will. some of them think we are SICK for even wanting to look at a gun. All we can hope for is that a majority remain ambivalent, and continue to believe that individual rights and freedoms trump the unease that most people experience at the mention of shooting sports.

Fair enough, I wasn't aware of your efforts, and you can probably agree that it's very easy to see your posts on a regular basis and get the impression I got. I'm sure there are others that have the same impression. Not saying it's fair, but it's what I got. No offense or upsetting intended, so my sincere apologies for that.

For what it's worth, I think you make a good and reasoned argument. I'll try to explain how/why I think the UK system might still be a better idea than where we are headed, though.

I think you over-estimate the efficacy of strategies in the vein of "personal freedom". I believe that the rights that would be awarded to an officially-recognized sports and/or enthusiast community or even to a business community would be far more powerful than ones that have been granted to a loosely knit group of individuals, largely through a loop hole. It's no accident that in the United Kingdom the primary mindshare footprint of the airsoft regulations is UKARA -- a business consortium. This is a growing and substantial business that employs more and more people in the UK. In the United States, anti-airsoft laws have successfully been defeated by the airsoft business "lobby". What I'm suggesting here is that UKARA in the UK and similarly-knit groups of businesses in the USA have established an industrial foothold. Big footholds are harder to disrupt.

In Canada, we have a very loosely-knit group of businesses and people, but nothing like what we see down south or over the ocean.

In addition, I think too many people here are trying to avoid a VCR/UKARA type route because they're conflating the freedom to play airsoft and own airsoft guns with themes of firearms ownership rights, with a touch of libertarian ethics. That's a perfectly fine personal stance to have, but I think it's massive overkill for the issue at hand and terrible for effective community outreach. In the UK this vein of discussion probably never even got visited because they have very few gun rights to begin with, and it was much easier to get the public to buy in on the sport being an extension of legitimate -- and from the public's view totally benign -- hobbyist and re-enactment activities. From the perspective of evaluating effective marketing strategies for the airsoft lobby, I believe that "cold dead hands" flag waving type branding is always going to lose. In the public eye, that just reenforces the "bunch of gun-toting crazies" view, which is bad. Airsoft is not junior firearms, and I would argue it doesn't factor into the same set of logic with respect to how we interact with the governments and out rights, and so I think our interests can and must be marketed differently.

We just need to consider better strategies of social engineering than we have already.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by MaciekA

Fair enough,
We just need to consider better strategies of social engineering than we have already.

The issue is.. that airsoft guns are regulated under the firearms act, and the criminal code provisions governing firearms.. these issues are linked.

you can't say something is different.. if the government has already set in law that they are not.

Lots of people talk about "legitimizing" the sport..

This activity is already legitimate it is 100% legal to participate in airsoft games, in fact the police often go out of their way to state they have no issues with legal and legitimate recognized uses for airsoft guns.. the bylaw posted above does as well.

Shooting each other with airsoft guns is already 100% legal and a recognized legitimate use for airsoft guns.

why would we want to add more regulation to an already recognized legal and legitimate pastime?

Our right to posses airsoft guns is already confirmed in the Criminal code, our ability to import , purchase and transfer most airsoft guns is 100% legal and permitted.

so if every aspect of this activity is already 100% legal and legitimate.. what exactly is more regulation for?

In the UK it is a serious criminal offense to posses a replica firearm.. in Canada it is 100% legal

City Bylaws are designed to provide an enforcement tool in the case of unfettered proliferation of an undesired event or type of behavior.

The federal government has stepped out of the way or retailers and importers.. the provinces have no jurisdiction to control airsoft guns.. because they are proscribed under the Criminal code.

Any and all control then has to fall to cities, We can't both call for age verification and control of the sale to minors and Criminals for ourselves and then raise a cry when cities also try to do the same thing.

[shaharov]

Originally Posted by Metalsynth

Right now, this looks to me more of a tool to swat a bothersome fly for the local PD.

Until I hear about players getting fines at a game, I'd stay calm about it.

The ones who really need to look into this right now are the local retailers. I dont see what prevents them to go see their local town representative are have their case heard.

If you pay taxes, you have a right to state your case.

Why would you get a fine at a local game. The bylaw is restricting the manufacture, sale and marketing of replicas in retail situation.... Not the use or ownership. This seems to be a kinda pointless approch by the police as most airsoft stuff they are complaining about is probably purchased online. The bylaws we deal with around where I live hamper us a bit more as they prohibit discharge of any projectile, but I dont believe that bylaws can make it prohibited to own a legal firearm (ie airsoft that falls withing RCMP fps limits).

[Dirtbag]

Back to the bylaw issue at hand go fight it. Sitting at home, complaining on this board will fix nothing, write letters show up to public hearings. Fight or be silent.

You might want to make the point that this bylaw does nothing to stop those who wish to break the law and only effects those who obey it. And perhaps making an effort to educate potential users and existing users rather than ban everything would be a more useful approach.

Oh and on the UK example no no no ask the real steel owners how well that sort of thing worked out for us.

[mr_nuts31]

I doubt it would change much, most of the sales is in Pacific Mall and you know how many businesses there follow the law? Let's be honest, do you really think this bylaw would stop sales in PMall? At least there's Splendid China Tower across the street from PMall on the Toronto side.

[mmmken]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

In the UK it is a serious criminal offense to posses a replica firearm.. in Canada it is 100% legal

Wait. What?

[Thenooblord]

its 100% legal to own a replica firearm, just what he said...

[Metalsynth]

[QUOTE=shaharov;1720511]Why would you get a fine at a local game.[QUOTE]

Exactly where I'm going with this...

We have a saying in Québec :

''This is a storm in a glass of water''

[mmmken]

Originally Posted by Thenooblord

its 100% legal to own a replica firearm, just what he said...

AFAIC, replica firearms are illegal. At least, that's what I've always thought. Guns that shoot past 366FPS (or whatever it is) are uncontrolled firearms and thus, are legal.

We've used the "obtained before 1998" loophole towards sub-366FPS guns, but technically guns released after 1998 and shoot below that threshold are in fact, illegal to own, acquire, and to transfer.

Source: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...plique-eng.htm

[Thenooblord]

TRANSFER of replica firearms is illegal, ownership is 100% legal

[FirestormX]

After reading that page, my understanding is the same as ken's:

Possessing or Acquiring Replica Firearms

Individuals may keep any replicas that they owned on December 1, 1998. A licence is not required to possess a replica firearm, and it does not have to be registered. However, individuals cannot acquire, make or import a replica firearm. If a replica firearm is taken out of Canada, it cannot be brought back in. Businesses may possess, acquire or import replica firearms only if they have a valid Firearms Business Licence that allows them to possess prohibited devices for an approved purpose.