Clarification on gas powered airsoft over 500 FPS

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by Amos

Case and point:

Companies can't bring the guns into Canada without having to deal with importation bullshit.

So they forget it... It's more of a headache than it's worth to them.

Sorry man...please don't think im being rude...but did you read the thread? :banghead:

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by Styrak

Exactly why companies don't pay attention to the Canadian airsoft scene. It's way too small to even bother.

:banghead: But it wouldn't be if we open up that closed door!

[Dog Face Killer]

Here...this is from a recent case in Ontario involving the Superior Court of Ontario and the CBSA:

"16. The CBSA submitted that the rifles in issue are not firearms, since the projectiles that they discharge are unlikely to cause serious bodily injury or death to a person, as required by the definition of “firearm” pursuant to section 2 of the Criminal Code.

The Tribunal agrees with the CBSA that, to be considered a firearm, an airsoft rifle must have a muzzle velocity that exceeds 124 metres (407 feet) per second. Because the rifles in issue have muzzle velocities that are below this threshold,[6] the Tribunal agrees with the CBSA that they are not firearms. Based on the definition of “firearm” found in section 2, the Tribunal is satisfied that the second condition of the definition of “replica firearm” is fulfilled, i.e. each rifle in issue itself is not a firearm.

The way i read it is that if the "airsoft" gun shoots over 124 meters (407 feet) per second, it is therefore a firearm. Now...this is ware it gets neat....a pellet gun or BB gun fires above 407 yet below 499...and therefore does not have to be registered with the RCMP, ie PAL...i know this because i called them and asked!!!

So, you get a (Maruzen MP5) that shoots over 407FPS yet under 499FPS...you now have in essence a firearm that falls into the airgun/firearm and not replica/airsoft category that you do not need a license for nor will the CBSA have anything to say about it when it comes into Canada.

[Jackals]

Funny thing is, no one here has mentioned the fact that inorder for it be a firearm it must meet two criteria.

1. 500 FPS or more
2. Amount of Joules (not sure on the number).

If it doesnt meet both of those conditions its not a fire arm. Last time I checked, and I could be wrong, a 6mm .20 to .40 bbs couldnt reach the amount of Joules required until something like 700 FPS.

Just an outside point.

As a retailer of parts, dealing with the CBSA is a major time consumer. I cant tell you how many days I play telephone tag with the Prohibited Items Unit, hell I have them on Speed dail.

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by Jackals

Funny thing is, no one here has mentioned the fact that inorder for it be a firearm it must meet two criteria.

1. 500 FPS or more
2. Amount of Joules (not sure on the number).

If it doesnt meet both of those conditions its not a fire arm. Last time I checked, and I could be wrong, a 6mm .20 to .40 bbs couldnt reach the amount of Joules required until something like 700 FPS.

Just an outside point.

As a retailer of parts, dealing with the CBSA is a major time consumer. I cant tell you how many days I play telephone tag with the Prohibited Items Unit, hell I have them on Speed dail.

<nod> and im not arguing...but.....

Direct from the RCMP website: http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/airguns_e.asp

" 2. Air guns that meet the Criminal Code definition of a firearm, but that are deemed not to be firearms for certain purposes of the Firearms Act and Criminal Code.

These are air guns with a maximum muzzle velocity of 152.4 meters or 500 feet per second and/or a maximum muzzle energy of 5.7 joules or 4.2 foot pounds.

Such air guns are exempt from licensing, registration, and other requirements under the Firearms Act, and from penalties set out in the Criminal Code for possessing a firearm without a valid licence or registration certificate. However, they are considered to be firearms under the Criminal Code if they are used to commit a crime. Anyone who uses such an air gun to commit a crime faces the same penalties as someone who uses a regular firearm.

The simple possession, acquisition and use of these air guns for lawful purposes is regulated more by provincial and municipal laws and by-laws than by federal law. For example, some provinces may have set a minimum age for acquiring such an air gun. For more information, please contact your local or provincial authorities.

These air guns are exempt from the specific safe storage, transportation and handling requirements set out in the regulations supporting the Firearms Act. However, the Criminal Code requires that reasonable precautions be taken to use, carry, handle, store, transport, and shipped them in a safe and secure manner."

[Lakonian]

This has been argued countless times. Do we really need another thread about this?

Until the government issues some kind of "Skirmisher's license" like the UK, we're boned..

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by kos

This has been argued countless times. Do we really need another thread about this?

Until the government issues some kind of "Skirmisher's license" like the UK, we're boned..

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Order an airsoft gun from anyware you want in the world outside of Canada...the prerequisite is that it has to have a "consistent" FPS rating of over 400FPS yet under 499FPS for testing purposes. Now, if and when the CBSA stops it at the border...you tell them its a airgun....guess what....according to the criminal code, CBSA and any other agency you can think of...its an airgun that can be legally imported...thats my interpretation and I'm going to put it to the test on Monday when i call the RCMP in Ottawa!

[CDN_Stalker]

An airsoft gun, to be considered a 'firearm', would have to be shooting a 0.20g BB at over 720fps (the whole 500fps+ AND 5.7 Joules thing.)

I still wouldn't recommend trying to bring one into the country on your own though.

[Lakonian]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Killer

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Order an airsoft gun from anyware you want in the world outside of Canada...the prerequisite is that it has to have a "consistent" FPS rating of over 400FPS yet under 499FPS for testing purposes. Now, if and when the CBSA stops it at the border...you tell them its a airgun....guess what....according to the criminal code, CBSA and any other agency you can think of...its an airgun that can be legally imported...thats my interpretation and I'm going to put it to the test on Monday when i call the RCMP in Ottawa!

Go ahead, but it has been done before.

Peter Kang used to get into little scraps with CBSA all the time, and nothing really came out of it.

Don't think the times, and minds have changed much.

[TokyoSeven]

Originally Posted by kos

This has been argued countless times. Do we really need another thread about this?

Yes Kos, apparently someone thinks we do need another thread about this.

Dog Face, best of luck with you in your endeavor, kudos to you for trying, like I said, not to sound cynical but all I see in your argument is a bunch of transparent "ifs" and your interpretation of and application of something from the RCMP website. Interpretation works two ways and the CBSA may not see it your way, your thinking about it all in the terms of airgun restrictions, you havent even thought about applying replica restrictions yet, even though an airsoft gun may not exactly be a replica, for all intensive purposes the CBSA will most likly treat it like one.

I dont feel like beating a dead horse anymore. If anyone needs it, its 930am. I'll be having a martini.

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by CDN_Stalker

An airsoft gun, to be considered a 'firearm', would have to be shooting a 0.20g BB at over 720fps (the whole 500fps+ AND 5.7 Joules thing.)

I still wouldn't recommend trying to bring one into the country on your own though.

The "Joules" thing is the only gray area for me...gona clarify that on Monday when i make my call to the RCMP!

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by kos

Go ahead, but it has been done before.

Peter Kang used to get into little scraps with CBSA all the time, and nothing really came out of it.

Don't think the times, and minds have changed much.

Can you expand on that a bit?
Was he importing guns under 400 FPS..etc?
Or were they in the 400 to 500 range?

[Blitzz40]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Killer

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Order an airsoft gun from anyware you want in the world outside of Canada...the prerequisite is that it has to have a "consistent" FPS rating of over 400FPS yet under 499FPS for testing purposes. Now, if and when the CBSA stops it at the border...you tell them its a airgun....guess what....according to the criminal code, CBSA and any other agency you can think of...its an airgun that can be legally imported...thats my interpretation and I'm going to put it to the test on Monday when i call the RCMP in Ottawa!

Just to make that clear and base on a personnal experience with the CBSA not later than last week. They will size everything that have a trigger on it. You still need the proper import license for a RS gun and airsoft replica are even worst. Even with the right license they can still size them. Simply ask yourself why we just have a few retailers left.

edit : typo

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by TokyoSeven

Yes Kos, apparently someone thinks we do need another thread about this.

Dog Face, best of luck with you in your endeavor, kudos to you for trying, like I said, not to sound cynical but all I see in your argument is a bunch of transparent "ifs" and your interpretation of and application of something from the RCMP website. Interpretation works two ways and the CBSA may not see it your way, your thinking about it all in the terms of airgun restrictions, you havent even thought about applying replica restrictions yet, even though an airsoft gun may not exactly be a replica, for all intensive purposes the CBSA will most likly treat it like one.

I dont feel like beating a dead horse anymore. If anyone needs it, its 930am. I'll be having a martini.

This should end this argument...period!

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlig...nlii11266.html

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlig...nlii11265.html

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlig...anlii2725.html

These are links to the "latest" ruling of the courts regarding airsoft importation and the CBSA. The CBSA's entire argument is that the guns in question are "replicas"!! If the gun shoots over 400 FPS according to their own argument, then it is no longer a "replica", but a firearm...so...again...for the ninth time...as long as its over 400FPS but below 500FPS, its a firearm and NOT a replica...and therefore can be imported without any issue from the CBSA! Once you get over 500FPS you then need a PAL and you have to register it as a firearm!

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by Blitzz40

Just to make that clear and base on a personnal experience with the CBSA not later than last week. They will size everything that have a trigger on it. You still need the proper import license for a RS gun and airsoft replica are even worst. Even with the right license they can still size them. Simply ask yourself why we just have a few retailers left.

edit : typo

Im not saying that you wont have any problems intialy...what i am saying is that by law...the CBSA would not have any legal right to keep the guns if they met the criteria i have outlined here.

Yes they may question...and yes they may even send the guns to the RCMP to test...but as long as the FPS tests come back at the specified FPS rating, they would have to release them to you. If they dint, then you would apeal.....go before the board.....and i would take all their previous disitions with me...and i would walk out with a release order by the court directing the CBSA to release my murchandise to me!