Green Gas or Propane?

[Scrivah]

Oh gotta love the green gas vs. propane debates!

[Swattiger]

As I don't shoot a lot my pistol or GBBR, I simply stick to green gas. Just for peace of mind.

[SideWazE]

Speaking of butane, a friend of mine (years ago) who sold me my first air pistol claimed that he put butane cartridges in it rather than CO2 cartridges because it 'apparently' fired harder/faster. Is that true? The gun was a Crossman 357 from Crappy Tire.

IF that's true, could butane be used insted of green gas or propane to give an added kick power wise? I'm no gas expert here lol, but I've always wondered if this was true. Guessing butane isn't any more/less flamable then propane right?

[Ricochet]

My statement "it's physics" was in response to Styrak's constantly telling me the same thing. And although chemistry is the study, physical properties are at play here. Thank you for the detailed explanation though, you made things much clearer than I could have, and I use to work with propane. However I stand by my statement that propane in liquid form can come in higher pressures. I believe I read that depending on it's purpose, propane can be acquired at higher compression; which I do remember from my course. I have consistently had guns shoot hotter on green gas as well. What's your thoughts on that point? Better yet, has anyone had the same or differing experiences with propane versus green gas FPS wise? And if so what brands did you use?

[XZIVR]

Originally Posted by SideWazE

Speaking of butane, a friend of mine (years ago) who sold me my first air pistol claimed that he put butane cartridges in it rather than CO2 cartridges because it 'apparently' fired harder/faster. Is that true? The gun was a Crossman 357 from Crappy Tire.

IF that's true, could butane be used insted of green gas or propane to give an added kick power wise? I'm no gas expert here lol, but I've always wondered if this was true. Guessing butane isn't any more/less flamable then propane right?

Actually at a glance, it looks like the vapor pressure of butane is much less than propane. Would probably make it shoot incredibly weak..

Quick google search says butane is 35 psi @ 70F whereas propane looks like it's over 100 at the same temperature. Putting propane into that torch was probably a REALLY bad idea, and now I know why the blue flame went from 1" long to like 4" long, lol.

[Rommen]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

My statement "it's physics" was in response to Styrak's constantly telling me the same thing. And although chemistry is the study, physical properties are at play here. Thank you for the detailed explanation though, you made things much clearer than I could have, and I use to work with propane. However I stand by my statement that propane in liquid form can come in higher pressures. I believe I read that depending on it's purpose, propane can be acquired at higher compression; which I do remember from my course. I have consistently had guns shoot hotter on green gas as well. What's your thoughts on that point? Better yet, has anyone had the same or differing experiences with propane versus green gas FPS wise? And if so what brands did you use?

Excellent response sir. First let me say that I know Stryak started it lol, I just had to correct everyone being the science nerd I am. Just for the sake of absolute clarity, it is actually still chemistry even though you are looking at physical properties. Although I guess it could be considered to branch into some areas of physics such as thermodynamics or fluid laws.

Propane CAN be compressed to higher pressures, but under rather extreme conditions and my guess would be it would only practical in industrial-sized applications, perhaps when storing large amounts as fuel.

Most interesting point is how some Green Gas will perform differently from propane. I believe Stryak had the answer here, they are adding other gases than propane (C3H8) to the mix for whatever reason. Therefore the vapor pressure inside the magazine will be slightly different than a pure propane fill, giving the observed 10-30 fps variation.

Another point to make is that even if the fill container was 'supercharged' (and it's not) the transfer of gas into the magazine would negate any benefit. Any leaks from the valve during the fill, as well as the expansion and subsequent cooling would result in incomplete filling of the magazine. This would give the normal vapor pressure inside the magazine, even if the fill container was at higher than normal pressure.

God I love science lol

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by Rommen

Excellent response sir. First let me say that I know Stryak started it lol, I just had to correct everyone being the science nerd I am. Just for the sake of absolute clarity, it is actually still chemistry even though you are looking at physical properties. Although I guess it could be considered to branch into some areas of physics such as thermodynamics or fluid laws.

Propane CAN be compressed to higher pressures, but under rather extreme conditions and my guess would be it would only practical in industrial-sized applications, perhaps when storing large amounts as fuel.

Most interesting point is how some Green Gas will perform differently from propane. I believe Stryak had the answer here, they are adding other gases than propane (C3H8) to the mix for whatever reason. Therefore the vapor pressure inside the magazine will be slightly different than a pure propane fill, giving the observed 10-30 fps variation.

Another point to make is that even if the fill container was 'supercharged' (and it's not) the transfer of gas into the magazine would negate any benefit. Any leaks from the valve during the fill, as well as the expansion and subsequent cooling would result in incomplete filling of the magazine. This would give the normal vapor pressure inside the magazine, even if the fill container was at higher than normal pressure.

God I love science lol

Good post. Styrak may have indeed been onto something. It's interesting to see how myth, science, what retailers/manufacturers tell you, and what actually is can differ so much.

[coach]

If green gas is indeed resulting in higher pressures, then all the green gas bandwagon people claiming "green gas is safer to use on my pistol than propane. I'll stick with it because it's better for my gun" are doing a disservice to themselves and their pistols.

[Nelson]HA! HA![/Nelson]

[Ricochet]

LPG used for cooking and such is not very "clean". It's suggested that the additives, and/or the unrefined crap is bad for your pistol. I personally have not witnessed this myself. Even if it is true, regular cleaning and lubrication is key; even if your using green gas. There could be some impurities that eat o-rings, rubber seals, or cheap plastic parts over time; but if it's true, it takes a long time. Green gas is apparently heavily refined, with good silicone oil pre-added. Unfortunately their canisters are not on par. I find it hard to believe that green gas is worth the 4x plus cost of propane.

[Danke]

I think most of the Propane debate comes from the fact that it will soak your plastic gun in stink, and some folks get way overgenerous with adding oil and they gunk things up.

[QUATTROISKING]

Originally Posted by Danke

I think most of the Propane debate comes from the fact that it will soak your plastic gun in stink, and some folks get way overgenerous with adding oil and they gunk things up.

I wanted clarification on that? I have two new pistols, only propaine is used on them, both have around 400 rounds through them, the kwa mark 2 (full metal) stinks! Even without a mag in it just smells like propaine where as my hk g17 hardly smells at all?

( when guns are being stored not fired)

[Styrak]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

LPG used for cooking and such is not very "clean". It's suggested that the additives, and/or the unrefined crap is bad for your pistol. I personally have not witnessed this myself. Even if it is true, regular cleaning and lubrication is key; even if your using green gas. There could be some impurities that eat o-rings, rubber seals, or cheap plastic parts over time; but if it's true, it takes a long time. Green gas is apparently heavily refined, with good silicone oil pre-added. Unfortunately their canisters are not on par. I find it hard to believe that green gas is worth the 4x plus cost of propane.

What evidence do you have that green gas is "refined"? It's almost certainly the exact same propane and they just don't add the scent, and then also add lubricant.

[Ricochet]

I don't, I believe it's most likely the exact same. That's why I said it's suggested, but I haven't seen it. I do know that different propane has different additives, or more oxygen in its mix. That actually be the pressure difference now that I think about it.

[ILLusion]

Even propane that comes from the same manufacturer will have variances in pressure. Obviously, there is a wide margin of tolerance... at least at Coleman and Worthington, which are the two major brands I use, and have observed pressure differences of up to 35psi - even between two bottles that come from the exact same package.

[BloodSport]

Wow did anyone even answer the original question......


If no..... Then your perfectly fine running your gun on propane at $3 a bottle with some oil added to it or on green gas at $22 a bottle.

In the end it's the game gas so no issues.



Now getting back to the whole gas compression issues that all of you Toronto based boys seem to like arguing about. We will have to have a chicken slaughter the next time I'm put then I will give a fine gas compression demonstration.