More STAR stuff - 20 round VN Locaps

[Gryphon]

Originally Posted by FNG

This is an interesating bit of information. Can you you give me a link to this info you've found?

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=103570

"Also, there was no GOOD reason to only load 18 rounds in the mag, but here's why it happened:

In the beginning, M193 ammo was issued in boxes, loose. GIs would typically dump out the boxes into their ponchos and proceed to load their mags. Sometimes, they would overload the mags, as you can force 21 (and sometimes 22) rounds into the mag. This is BAD, of course, and can (and usually will) cause a failure to feed. This was eventually fixed by issuing the ammo on loaded stripper clips. 1 mag = 2 clips of ammo.

The other problem was that GIs would disassemble their mags for cleaning and remove the follower from the spring. Because the spring connected to the follower in almost the center, it was easy to put the follower back on the spring backwards. You wouldn't notice a problem until you tried to load the mag. That's when you'd notice that it was difficult to put more than 18 rounds in the mag, and if you forced the last two in, it would bind the follower and you'd have no spring pressure to feed the ammo. This was "solved" by instructing GIs never to remove the followers from the spring (though of course I'm sure it still happened sometimes).

By '68 or so, most units were correctly filling their 20 round mags with 20 rounds, and not having any problems. But some units, who were trained the "old" way and/or who believed all of the myths and mistruths that were spread about the M16, would still train the "18 in a 20" method. Some folks STILL underload their mags to this day, and there is NO reason to do so."

Originally Posted by Tankdude

Locaps rule....

:tup:

[Kokanee]

Originally Posted by FNG

This is an interesating bit of information. Can you you give me a link to this info you've found?

Maybe one of the militia / infantry guys can weigh in on this. I'll agree with Shuridys as when I went through basic, they teach you to load your mag with the full three stripper clips worth of bullets (stripper clips holding 10 rounds). I've never seen anyone intentionally underload their mags.

[FNG]

Thanks W.K.Shuridys and Kokanee. Information is the key to enlightenment.

F.N.G.

[Dale Man]

The bottom line is that the M16 A1 was shyte. It jammed due to the conditions it was used in and the ammo that was supplied at first. The grunts loaded only 18 because it did help in preventing jams. There was a legitimate issue with that and they used that to prevent the jam.

The M16 is designed in a way that all the parts fit in very snug. A bit of crap (powder residue) and the weapon failed to function. (this has to do with the garbage ammo that was initially supplied in the earlier years of the war). The gas tube immediately got cluttered with the residue which blocked the gas that was supposed to travel back to the bolt to cycle it through.

[Goldman]

Originally Posted by Kid

But 20 isn't even real - as only 16 of them are gonna load...

Why can't Star take this into account?

Star M4 lo-caps, once broken in hold 33 rounds, to account fo rhte rounds lost in the feet proccedure, I'd imagine these are the same.

[Kid]

Originally Posted by Goldman

Star M4 lo-caps, once broken in hold 33 rounds, to account fo rhte rounds lost in the feet proccedure, I'd imagine these are the same.

Ah. If that's the case, providing it would load at least 18, I'll pick some up...

Really makes me mad that I got the M4 instead of the VN as I had planned...

[Gryphon]

Originally Posted by Dale Man

The bottom line is that the M16 A1 was shyte. It jammed due to the conditions it was used in and the ammo that was supplied at first. The grunts loaded only 18 because it did help in preventing jams. There was a legitimate issue with that and they used that to prevent the jam.

The M16 is designed in a way that all the parts fit in very snug. A bit of crap (powder residue) and the weapon failed to function. (this has to do with the garbage ammo that was initially supplied in the earlier years of the war). The gas tube immediately got cluttered with the residue which blocked the gas that was supposed to travel back to the bolt to cycle it through.

The M16's history is far more complicated than that, as are the reasons for its history of malfunctioning. Some points you conveniently neglect to mention is the fact that rifles were not initially supplied with a cleaning rod or bore/chamber brush, and soldiers were often told that the weapons were "self cleaning". Furthermore, Remington was having difficulties maintaining upper chamber pressure limits with CR8136 propellant and requested a change to WC846 ball, which exacerbated the fouling issue. Its higher port pressure also had the effect of increasing the cyclic rate which wasn't resolved until the compression-ring Edgewater buffer was replaced with the heavy one now standard in all AR-15s. Plating the chambers with chromium and eventually switching back to a stick propellant, as well as implementing an aggressive cleaning regimen complete with comic-style manuals for the troops, eventually cured the problem.

Get The Black Rifle by Edward C. Ezell for the full story. It's some 400 pages long and I'm not prepared to transcribe the whole thing here. Also pick up The AR-15 Complete Owner's Guide by Walt Kuleck, which has my research on Colt AR-15 variants in it. My work available online at http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/variants/

Oh yeah, I happen to know a thing or two about AR-15s.

[Yeoman]

I always under load my mags. 25 rounds to a mag usually. it's what I've always been taught. it's always the "better safe then sorry" rule for us. I've actually seen jams/double feeds from even just having a full thirty in the mag.
Greg

[zero delay]

Originally Posted by W.K.Shuridys

Oh yeah, I happen to know a thing or two about AR-15s.

And everything else under the sun eh?

I love how people who have never had boots on the ground in theatre or never been face down for hours in mud saturated by month long tropical monsoons, or crossed rivers so choked with silt you think your blind when your head slip beneath the water, can critque the practices of the troops who fought and died in those conditions. If those guys did it you can bet your ass they did it because it was proven to help them stay alive where ever the hell they were at the time, regardless of what conclusion some armchair general "Martial Arms" experts reached safe at home in their study.

[Kid]

Originally Posted by zero delay

And everything else under the sun eh?

I love how people who have never had boots on the ground in theatre or never been face down for hours in mud saturated by month long tropical monsoons, or crossed rivers so choked with silt you think your blind when your head slip beneath the water, can critque the practices of the troops who fought and died in those conditions. If those guys did it you can bet your ass they did it because it was proven to help them stay alive where ever the hell they were at the time, regardless of what conclusion some armchair general "Martial Arms" experts reached safe at home in their study.

Now, what, may I ask, was the point of that?

Like... flame a trash thread. Not a dead one.

EDIT - Come on, ease up. But yeah, my springer as seen in the picture is broken... got a ICS though. A CA in the mail and a UTG, but that doesn't really count.

[zero delay]

Kiss my ass Kid, go play with your springer in the basement

Originally Posted by W.K.Shuridys

Last time I checked, realism was the hallmark of airsoft.

No, looking real is the hallmark of airsoft. Far as Im concerned, there is nothing real about having 3000 rounds vs 300 rounds when your shots dont make it past 100 feet.
Real to look at, sure
real to play with no

Person 1: "dude, check out my urber realistic AEG. its 1:1 scale and full metal with USMC markings."

Person 2: "Sweet, shoot it"

Persons 1 & 2: "Oh, thats a shame, the BB wizzes out 170 feet like a drunken bird, sent off course by the slightest breath of air and stoped dead by a leaf."

Person 1: "atleast it looks real"


lowcap mags may be enhance realism in CQB enviorments, but in the bush, the dynamics of shooting a light weight BB at low velocity simply suck.
Looking like a real solider may be nice and all, but when you step out into a field and see your enemy 250 feet away, and neither of you can engage eachother...there is nothing real about it. In that case, even lazer games are more real since their trajectories are flat and their ranges can be far.
Shitty when you can toss a baseball further then your gun can shoot.


You get hardcore realism players who are dead set on real loadouts because it adds to the realism, yet they are so quick to dismiss the fact that the performance of their guns is no more real then the kids running around their backyards with paintball/softair or supersoakers. Sometimes a better balance in the attitudes needs to be reached. If your gonna toss away one aspect of realism, you gotta relax on the other.

understandably its a saftey issue.
say that, I use star mags in my AR Thought I stick to my claim that 1bb does not = 1 bullet, thus 30 round lowcaps are infact not realistic.
But whatever floats your boat. Its all about having fun in your own way.
(W.K.Shuridys, not directed to you, just a place to put my rant)

either way, I got totally offtopic

[Gryphon]

No no, you bring up some very valid arguments and your point is well taken.

[Amgoosen]

Droc wins this thread.

[Cortexburn]

I'm shocked Droc....I completely agree..... Your points are what I've been been telling people who have asked about star lows. I've always considered regular lows to be more realistic.